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'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

Conservative said:
I am still waiting for you or anyone else here that isn't in the mlitary to explain why this issue is so important to you. Seems that the military disagrees with you.

Military Times Poll: Troops Oppose Gay Agenda for the Military - Elaine Donnelly - The Tank on National Review Online
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There is a serious flaw with the poll. The respondents where self selected from among those who read the Military Times. Just thought you might like to know. It's not a scientific poll.
 
Conservative said:
Latest poll says differently

Military Times Poll: Troops Oppose Gay Agenda for the Military - Elaine Donnelly - The Tank on National Review Online
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First of all, that's from last year. The study that was done, that only included those actually in the military, and not those who may have once been in the military, as military times does, or their families showed that the numbers of those who are okay with DADT being repealed are much higher than the results of that poll.

Also, if someone is that uncomfortable with living with openly gay servicemembers, eventhough they have mostly likely been living with closeted gay servicemembers their entire time in, then they should get out. The military should not be encouraging intolerance, and if that means getting rid of those who would are intolerant of someone because of their sexuality, then they shouldn't be in the military. They can be replaced. There are plenty of people that are lining up to fill in most positions in the military, and it is highly unlikely that those who are saying that they would get out just because they would have to live with openly gay individuals are in those fields that are highly undermanned, since it has been my experience that those people in those fields have much more important things to be concerned with than other people's sexuality.
 
roguenuke said:
Not likely. First of all, why would they join only when they could be openly gay. They would still be taking a chance of getting the crap beat out of them and/or being killed because someone was not happy about being hit on. How many guys do you think will volunteer for sub duty after they put women on board, just to be able to live in those close quarters with women. Very few, if any, would be my guess.

You are basing your arguments on what might happen, not what is most likely to happen. Poor way to debate. Do you have any evidence that there are that many gay men or women that would join the military just because they could live more closely with people that they might be attracted to?
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No, admitedly, I'm not aware of any studies in that area. I just don't think you can completely dismiss the possibility.

Let me ask you this, why are openly gay inmates separated from the general population in prison? I don't mean to compare anyone with convicts, I'm just using it as example.
 
Your Star said:
America isn't a democracy. We are a representative republic. And if our tax dollars are going to the military, we have a opinion on things like this.
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Well hell, if this is the standard, I definitely have areas where my tax money should earn me a say.
 
roguenuke said:
First of all, that's from last year. The study that was done, that only included those actually in the military, and not those who may have once been in the military, as military times does, or their families showed that the numbers of those who are okay with DADT being repealed are much higher than the results of that poll.

Also, if someone is that uncomfortable with living with openly gay servicemembers, eventhough they have mostly likely been living with closeted gay servicemembers their entire time in, then they should get out. The military should not be encouraging intolerance, and if that means getting rid of those who would are intolerant of someone because of their sexuality, then they shouldn't be in the military. They can be replaced. There are plenty of people that are lining up to fill in most positions in the military, and it is highly unlikely that those who are saying that they would get out just because they would have to live with openly gay individuals are in those fields that are highly undermanned, since it has been my experience that those people in those fields have much more important things to be concerned with than other people's sexuality.
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It really doesn't matter when the poll was taken or even if it was taken, DADT was put into place by Clinton in 1993 and has to be repealed by Congress. I am not in the military but was in the military, military personnel are some of the best people I have ever met and have the greatest respect for all military personnel. They will adapt if that happens but until the Congress repeals it debate on the matter is really irrelevant. I don't think it is going to happen but the passion for the issue really fascinates me especially coming from people here who aren't serving. I respect your position and you certainly have a right to that opinion but it isn't an issue that deserves this much debate. it is what it is until repealed. 36 pages on this topic? I believe the comments in the Military Times poll is accurate, there are a lot of radicals trying to force their agenda on the military and that needs to be taken into consideration.
 
X Factor said:
Well hell, if this is the standard, I definitely have areas where my tax money should earn me a say.
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How cool would that be? This is off topic but - every year we pay our federal taxes, we direct our money where we want - general one's maybe 12 or less. And those that don't get enough funding get downsized and those that do grow. Not all of our tax money, just a portion.

Hm... sorry for the hijack.
 
More information on the Military Times poll: it starts with questions about sexual harassment by gays, then goes and asks opinions on repealing DADT. That is what is known as a flawed methodology. Self selected from a narrow pool of respondents with a flawed methodology. Not worth much.
 
X Factor said:
No, admitedly, I'm not aware of any studies in that area. I just don't think you can completely dismiss the possibility.

Let me ask you this, why are openly gay inmates separated from the general population in prison? I don't mean to compare anyone with convicts, I'm just using it as example.
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.... If you're using gay inmates as an example then you've just effectively compared the average heterosexual male in the military to corrupt gang members running prostitution gangs. However to anybody who's been in jail and knows what the military is like, the two are not even remotely comparable in terms of social dynamics or hierarchichal systems.
 
Still more on the Military Times poll:

Public opinion pollsters use random selection to survey the general public, whereas the Military Times survey is based on responses from readers who chose to take part. Statistical margins of error commonly reported in opinion surveys cannot be calculated for this survey because those calculations depend on random sampling.
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http://militarytimes.com/webtools/files/methodology.pdf

Note this is from the Military Times itself.
 
Redress said:
More information on the Military Times poll: it starts with questions about sexual harassment by gays, then goes and asks opinions on repealing DADT. That is what is known as a flawed methodology. Self selected from a narrow pool of respondents with a flawed methodology. Not worth much.
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This entire debate isn't worth much but it continues. DADT has to be repealed by Congress and right now that doesn't look likely. So much passion on the part of radicals just like with most other issues including economics. How does this affect the people here. No problem with an opinion but in the end it is up to the Congress and our military. The passion here is fascinating. My bet is this issue doesn't affect one person here. Our military isn't goingto implode regardless of the outcome.
 
Conservative said:
It really doesn't matter when the poll was taken or even if it was taken, DADT was put into place by Clinton in 1993 and has to be repealed by Congress. I am not in the military but was in the military, military personnel are some of the best people I have ever met and have the greatest respect for all military personnel. They will adapt if that happens but until the Congress repeals it debate on the matter is really irrelevant. I don't think it is going to happen but the passion for the issue really fascinates me especially coming from people here who aren't serving. I respect your position and you certainly have a right to that opinion but it isn't an issue that deserves this much debate. it is what it is until repealed. 36 pages on this topic? I believe the comments in the Military Times poll is accurate, there are a lot of radicals trying to force their agenda on the military and that needs to be taken into consideration.
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There is debate on it because it is an important issue to many people, on both sides.

And there are radicals on both sides of the issue trying to push their agendas in. This issue is not being pushed by just the radicals however, there are a lot of people like me who just want what is fair. I wouldn't protest the actual military about this, nor would I do anything illegal or stupid for this cause. But I will argue with people all day that DADT is discrimination, intolerance, and unfair. I hate unfairness, plain and simple.
 
Conservative said:
This entire debate isn't worth much but it continues. DADT has to be repealed by Congress and right now that doesn't look likely. So much passion on the part of radicals just like with most other issues including economics. How does this affect the people here. No problem with an opinion but in the end it is up to the Congress and our military. The passion here is fascinating. My bet is this issue doesn't affect one person here. Our military isn't goingto implode regardless of the outcome.
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Over 60 % of Americans are radicals now? Most of Congress and the military support repeal, and yet it isn't happening. Fascinating that...
 
Conservative said:
What undermanned jobs are there that a gay recruit can do better than a straight?
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It doesn't matter whether they're gay or not, the person already in the military already has training. This was the point you missed.


Conservative said:
The point is that the majority in this country don't believe that this issue is serious enough to warrant a lot of concern. Only a small vocal minority are fighting for this issue and the question is why?
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Very recent. Evidently the majority of this country, infact, well into a supermajority, thinks it's of some concern.

X Factor said:
If you remove DADT, isn't it possible more openly guy guys will join just to be able to live in close to close proximity to a lot of other men? In that case, incidents like I described could become more common. I don't know, just throwing the possibility out there.
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Change "openly gay guys" to "women". Granted they don't live in the same dorms, but they're still in regular close proximity.

What exactly makes people think gay soldiers will be constantly hitting on their squad-members? And what makes them think we can't get them for doing that if it happens anyway? Women can't make unwanted sexual advances on male soldiers either.
 
roguenuke said:
There is debate on it because it is an important issue to many people, on both sides.

And there are radicals on both sides of the issue trying to push their agendas in. This issue is not being pushed by just the radicals however, there are a lot of people like me who just want what is fair. I wouldn't protest the actual military about this, nor would I do anything illegal or stupid for this cause. But I will argue with people all day that DADT is discrimination, intolerance, and unfair. I hate unfairness, plain and simple.
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The military isn't going to implode regardless of the outcome so the passion on both sides IMO is ridiculous. What agenda are the radicals on the right pushing, the law is the law and it has worked for 17 years, why change it. rogue, this has been in place since 1993 so obviously it hasn't hurt anyone so why now?
 
Redress said:
There is a serious flaw with the poll. The respondents where self selected from among those who read the Military Times. Just thought you might like to know. It's not a scientific poll.
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In other words, pay no attention to those troops. ;)
 
X Factor said:
No, admitedly, I'm not aware of any studies in that area. I just don't think you can completely dismiss the possibility.

Let me ask you this, why are openly gay inmates separated from the general population in prison? I don't mean to compare anyone with convicts, I'm just using it as example.
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I've never been to prison, so I don't know about this policy and if it is in every prison. But, considering it is prison, I'd say it has more to do with the fact that most of the people in there have most likely already demonstrated that they do not have enough self control to prevent them from committing a crime in the first place, so why should we expect them to be able to behave themselves and/or obey prison rules, including ones about forcing others to have sex with them or abusing people who they are intolerant of. Our soldiers, on the other hand, demonstrate on an almost daily basis, for the most part, that most of them are quite capable of following orders and rules, including those against having sex in certain areas and forcing others to do things against their will.
 
Redress said:
Over 60 % of Americans are radicals now? Most of Congress and the military support repeal, and yet it isn't happening. Fascinating that...
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It has been the law since 1993 so tell me why now there is such passion for repeal? Radical passion is indeed fascinating as there is no personal benefit or harm on either side for most of those with that passion.
 
Conservative said:
The military isn't going to implode regardless of the outcome so the passion on both sides IMO is ridiculous. What agenda are the radicals on the right pushing, the law is the law and it has worked for 17 years, why change it. rogue, this has been in place since 1993 so obviously it hasn't hurt anyone so why now?
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Tell that to the people who have been discharged from the military because of this law.
 
Conservative said:
It has been the law since 1993 so tell me why now there is such passion for repeal? Radical passion is indeed fascinating as there is no personal benefit or harm on either side for most of those with that passion.
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Equal rights is something everyone should be passionate about.
 
Your Star said:
Tell that to the people who have been discharged from the military because of this law.
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Why were they discharged - do you have an example?
 
Your Star said:
Tell that to the people who have been discharged from the military because of this law.
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Family members? your outrage is misguided unless it affects you. Don't give me any bs about caring about the military. Did you ever serve? I have, my family members have and until you have you don' tknow what you are talking about but that doesn't stop you from ranting.
 
Conservative said:
The military isn't going to implode regardless of the outcome so the passion on both sides IMO is ridiculous. What agenda are the radicals on the right pushing, the law is the law and it has worked for 17 years, why change it. rogue, this has been in place since 1993 so obviously it hasn't hurt anyone so why now?
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I would have preferred that no rules against gays serving had ever been put into place. I have wanted this for a long time, since even before I joined the military. It is not like I just suddenly decided to jump on a band wagon here. But it is being fought for so hard right now, because there is a good chance that it can get repealed right now, as it should be. There is still a chance that it could be repealed in the next 2 years, but the best chance to get it done is now. It would mean one less issue that either side is fighting about too.
 
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