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Thread: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
    I think keeping DADT in place is far more likely to NEGATIVELY impact troop morale for the majority of troops.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Gays are in combat now. That doesn't make any sense.

    And I have worked with openly gay men and women in the military. Their sexual orientation had absolutely zero effect on our morale, discipline or unit cohesion.
    Well hell, if gays are already serving "openly", what's the issue?

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
    First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
    You have absolutely no proof that DADT has any impact on troop morale. In fact, most of the objections are based on fears and personal biases.

    The vast majority of those who have actually worked and/or lived with other servicemembers that they knew were gay, are completely for repealing DADT, even in the Marines and Army.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Well hell, if gays are already serving "openly", what's the issue?
    Because they can't do so in every command. That is the issue. And even in those commands that "allow" them to be opened, it would only take a change of command to force them back into the closet.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?
    I worry about hedge words like "significant". Is that a concession that it will impact troop morale in some way (even if it's determined by someone to be insignificant)? Right or wrong, the rules in the military are not the same as for us in the civilian world.
    Last edited by X Factor; 12-09-10 at 10:55 PM.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    First off, there is a study that was just released by the Pentagon stating that this won't cause a significant impact on troop morale. Secondly, LGBT soldiers are not being treated the same as their straight counterparts. That is the problem, they are being denied the dignity to start a family. Can't you see how horribly wrong that is?
    I don't put much into Pentagon studies about LGBT issues. And if it's that important to start a family, they should or could leave the military and do whatever they want. But, while in the military, DADT stays, which is fine by me. I didn't want to know then and don't want to know now - that's they're own business. Why is it that so many people want to make someone's sexual proclivity other people's business? I just don't get it.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I don't put much into Pentagon studies about LGBT issues. And if it's that important to start a family, they should or could leave the military and do whatever they want. But, while in the military, DADT stays, which is fine by me. I didn't want to know then and don't want to know now - that's they're own business. Why is it that so many people want to make someone's sexual proclivity other people's business? I just don't get it.
    Straight soldiers/sailors/marines are allowed and even encouraged to do many things, including getting married, bringing their loved ones to command events and ensuring that their loved ones are kept informed of certain command movements/activities, that gays are not allowed to do. These are things that every military member should be allowed to do because these are things that help to relieve some stress and worry from all servicemembers.

    DADT needs to go away. No one joined the military to be comfortable. If someone doesn't like serving alongside openly gay servicemembers who are doing their job, then maybe they should be the one to get out.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You have absolutely no proof that DADT has any impact on troop morale. In fact, most of the objections are based on fears and personal biases.
    Okay, still it would affect morale right? Even if you reject the reasons for their objections as being "bad" or unreasonable, that's not the same as saying there's no impact on morale.

    The vast majority of those who have actually worked and/or lived with other servicemembers that they knew were gay, are completely for repealing DADT, even in the Marines and Army.
    Well, if gays are forced to serve in silence, if you will, how many people in the military would this actually be. Not too many, right?

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Okay, I'm not discounting your points, but nobody has to join the military, right? Pretty much every gay person who joins knows that keeping this part of themselves under wraps is part of the deal. Many rights civilians have don't apply to military life, (just ask Gen. McChrystal). If DADT truly does positively impact troop morale for the majority of troops, wouldn't that be reason enough to keep it in place?
    Does that mean we should discriminate against Black soldiers? After all, they'd know what they'd be getting into when they signed up. Why can't they just soldier it out?

    I don't get it, you're so worried about troop morale for homophobic soldiers, all while forcing gay soldiers to stay in the closet or face discharge which I bet does wonders for their morale and effectiveness.

    Soldiers are expected to suck it up if that improves combat effectiveness. You'd have a point if the evidence showed that repealing DADT would seriously hamper troop effectiveness. The only problem is that almost all of the evidence says that repeal would have little effect on troop cohesion. All I've seen in support of DADT are some poorly done surveys, flimsy what-ifs, and complete disregard for history and foreign military policy. Even if we completely ignore the whole discrimination/civil rights angle, there still is not much if anything on DADT's side. Just look at history. I guarantee you that opposition to racial integration in the military was greater than it is with gays now. Yet they still went along with it. Were there a few hiccups, yes, but did it seriously hamper troop effectiveness, no. Our allies, the Canadians, the Brits, and the Israelis, all countries with very effective armed forces and soldiers, don't have anti-gay policies.

    Some military personnel might not like it, but as you said, liking everything they do is not in the job description. Like you said, they know that they are signing on for a difficult job where their wishes won't always be respected, but one of the things that makes our military so effective is that personnel are expected to do things that they don't like, and far more often than not deal with it.
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