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Thread: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

  1. #1201
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In my professional opinion, it would.

    Right. Try proving that in a courts martial.

    In my professional opinion, it would be prevented.
    How does DADT prevent someone from finding out or even just suspecting that someone else in their unit is gay? Since DADT specifically states that a CO is the only person who can open an investigation into a person's sexuality, it is quite possible for someone to be almost openly gay (and in some places, even completely openly gay) without being discharged under DADT, especially in certain jobs.

    In fact, there are probably a lot of bigoted people out there who would willing allow a fellow servicemember to die just because they don't like a certain trait of that person. There are probably some who would allow a fellow soldier to die because they
    don't like a particular person, for whatever reason. There are no rules that will ever prevent this. And DADT does nothing to reduce intolerance. In fact, it promotes it.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It doesn't work like that in the Army. Isn't your hubby in the Army? Ask him. An accusation, alone, is basis enough to go ahead with harassment charges. In those situations, the burden of proof is on the accused. You're thinking like a civilian and it just don't work like that in the service.
    First of all, my husband was a Marine and is currently in the Navy, as an MA. My brother was in the Army.

    And, yes, an accusation is reason to open an investigation into charges of harassment, not to actually make the charges stick. And, unfortunately, a lot of time it is placed on the accused to prove their innocence, which is wrong. This is another thing about the military that is broke, but it should not prevent repealing DADT. It should mean that those accusing someone else of harassment should have some sort of proof that they were actually being harassed. Unfortunately, there is no good way to deal with this issue, unless the military started setting up cameras with complete audio recording in every space the military owns to ensure that every act of harassment is always completely caught on tape.

    And I'm thinking that things should be fair for everyone, to the best extent that it can be. DADT is not fair. It needs to change. I have felt like this since before I joined the Navy, during my active Navy time, and still do during my reserve time. The military should not be promoting intolerance.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    But, what if you're wrong? Does anyone have the guts to tackle that question?
    I don't deal in "what ifs" that have nothing to back them up. I deal in real life. I have worked with openly gay men and women aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier. I know what the results of the study showed about repealing DADT. And I know that many people fear the unknown, and that fear of the unknown is the main reason for being against repeal of DADT.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because you said that being gay doesn't encourage discrimination. Actually...it does.
    Being gay doesn't create a bully any more than being black does. Some people just like to pick on others, and they'll find any reason for it. If they aren't picking on the gay soldier, they'll pick on the red-haired one.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Because you said that being gay doesn't encourage discrimination. Actually...it does.
    Actually, she said being openly gay doesn't encourage discrimination. There are always going to be people who bully/tease/harm others because the other people are different in some way. This doesn't mean that we should encourage the discrimination within our military by denying some people who are different the ability to serve without fear of discharge because some of those who don't like their difference may do them harm.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's no evidence that it will work. There are theories put forth, based on polls, that suggest that; but we all know reliable polls are in the real world.

    It worked for other countries?

    See what the commander of the British Army had to say about how it worked for his soldiers:



    Pay special attention to, "prevented the full contribution". If there's not a, "full contribution", in a firefight, someone is going to die. Someone that may not have necessarily been killed.
    This article is actually very positive about gays serving in the military and that the problems are solvable(Again, I don't think any one is going to say there will be zero problems). Let's look at some more quotes, first on the situation before gays could serve openly:

    "Until then no-one could complain about homophobic bullying because the Army could say 'bullying is terrible, and you're sacked - thanks for bringing it to our attention'," said Mr Summerskill.
    This is very analogous to the situation in our military now. If a gay gets bullied for being gay, to bring it to the attention of the command would be telling the command he is gay, and a discharge.

    He said that, having spoken with serving gay military personnel, the knowledge that General Dannatt was engaging with the issue had already re-enforced their commitment to the forces.

    Mr Summerskill acknowledged that, as with any large organisation, it is unrealistic to stamp out homophobic attitudes altogether, but that it was imperative to create a culture where people know that if they report bullying they will be taken seriously.
    A solution to the problem is there and considering this article is from 2 years ago, our military leaders are surely aware of the situation and can use the experience of the British military to guide setting up the changeover with DADT repeal.

    Finally, what you quoted:

    General Dannatt said: "One of the Army's six Core Values is 'Respect for Others' and it is therefore our absolute duty to treat our fellow soldiers as we would wish to be treated ourselves.

    "Discrimination against those in the Army who are lesbian, gay and bisexual does not give them a chance to contribute or to play a full part in the teams that are vital for our success on operations."
    Notice what is missing: there is no details on how widespread the problem is. That is important. There are problems with any group of people. The military still deals with racial issues today. The problem is not widespread, and is well handled by the military and the people in it. Gays in the military could and probably will be much like that. There will be the occasional idiot who makes problems, but training should limit the numbers, and swift appropriate action should both reduce incidence and show that the military is serious and keep morale high.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, she said being openly gay doesn't encourage discrimination. There are always going to be people who bully/tease/harm others because the other people are different in some way. This doesn't mean that we should encourage the discrimination within our military by denying some people who are different the ability to serve without fear of discharge because some of those who don't like their difference may do them harm.
    Stop it!
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Stop it!
    Great minds and all.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    [QUOTE=roguenuke;1059160739]How does DADT prevent someone from finding out or even just suspecting that someone else in their unit is gay? Since DADT specifically states that a CO is the only person who can open an investigation into a person's sexuality, it is quite possible for someone to be almost openly gay (and in some places, even completely openly gay) without being discharged under DADT, especially in certain jobs.[quote]

    Obviously, nothing is fool-proof, however, I think it would go along way to lesson the shock of the transition.

    In fact, there are probably a lot of bigoted people out there who would willing allow a fellow servicemember to die just because they don't like a certain trait of that person. There are probably some who would allow a fellow soldier to die because they
    don't like a particular person, for whatever reason. There are no rules that will ever prevent this. And DADT does nothing to reduce intolerance. In fact, it promotes it.
    There's no way it can promote it, unless you're suggesting that the quicker we force soldiers to accept gay soldiers serving openly, the quicker we'll weed out the homophobes. More of the same ole, "in yo face", crap? Make them homophobes pay?



    First of all, my husband was a Marine and is currently in the Navy, as an MA. My brother was in the Army.
    My mistake.

    And, yes, an accusation is reason to open an investigation into charges of harassment, not to actually make the charges stick. And, unfortunately, a lot of time it is placed on the accused to prove their innocence, which is wrong. This is another thing about the military that is broke, but it should not prevent repealing DADT. It should mean that those accusing someone else of harassment should have some sort of proof that they were actually being harassed. Unfortunately, there is no good way to deal with this issue, unless the military started setting up cameras with complete audio recording in every space the military owns to ensure that every act of harassment is always completely caught on tape.
    Not only that, convicted, or not, the case becomes a permanent part of a soldier's record, that will be seen everytime that he goes up for promotion.

    And I'm thinking that things should be fair for everyone, to the best extent that it can be. DADT is not fair. It needs to change. I have felt like this since before I joined the Navy, during my active Navy time, and still do during my reserve time. The military should not be promoting intolerance.
    The ban on gays isn't fair. Leaving a modified version of DADT in place would make things more fair, after the ban has been lifted.



    I don't deal in "what ifs" that have nothing to back them up. I deal in real life. I have worked with openly gay men and women aboard a US Navy aircraft carrier. I know what the results of the study showed about repealing DADT. And I know that many people fear the unknown, and that fear of the unknown is the main reason for being against repeal of DADT.
    You need to stop saying that everything is going to be fine, because real life tells us that it won't be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #1208
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This article is actually very positive about gays serving in the military and that the problems are solvable(Again, I don't think any one is going to say there will be zero problems). Let's look at some more quotes, first on the situation before gays could serve openly:



    This is very analogous to the situation in our military now. If a gay gets bullied for being gay, to bring it to the attention of the command would be telling the command he is gay, and a discharge.



    A solution to the problem is there and considering this article is from 2 years ago, our military leaders are surely aware of the situation and can use the experience of the British military to guide setting up the changeover with DADT repeal.

    Finally, what you quoted:



    Notice what is missing: there is no details on how widespread the problem is. That is important. There are problems with any group of people. The military still deals with racial issues today. The problem is not widespread, and is well handled by the military and the people in it. Gays in the military could and probably will be much like that. There will be the occasional idiot who makes problems, but training should limit the numbers, and swift appropriate action should both reduce incidence and show that the military is serious and keep morale high.
    I guess that's why the British Army has to ban together with gay rights groups, because there's so much gay tolerance within the ranks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Here is another indictment of abolishing DADT. A U.S. General, with extensive field experience says it's a bad idea and back it up with evidence of how a unit can become combat ineffetive.



    If you wrong, people will die.
    This is an old story that was thoroughly debunked at the time it came out. He based his claim on the hearsay evidence of Dutch officers, but no so officer has turned up. When the Dutch investigated it, they found a completely different set of reasons for the massacre. The events surrounding the Srebrenica massacre have been investigated many times, and no investigation has ever held that low morale due to homosexuals serving was in any way a pat of the problem, or that it was even the case that morale was low due to homosexuals serving.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelzie View Post
    Damn it. You know, I really hate it when you and another person post at the same time, saying the same thing, only they said it much better.
    Happens to me alot. I are not gud with words.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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