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Thread: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I can't believe that the Commandant doesn't understand that sexual orientation is worth jack, when the **** hits the fan.
    It is, if it's a distraction, like he believes it will be. I'll be willing to bet, that he know a helluva lot more about how damaging distractions on the battlefield can be, than you do. Whatcha think?

    General Amos has the navy Distinguished Service Medal, 2 Legions of Merit, A Bronze Star, The Merotirious Service Medal, The Navy Presidential Unit Citation, Navy Unit Commendation, Kosovo Campaign Medal, Iraq Campaign Medal and a Yugoslavia Campaign Medal.

    I would say that his opinion rates quite a bit higher than your average DADT abolitionist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    And it very well might not, then what?
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, it might not--without some foresight. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", comes to mind to respond to your post.

    I'll continue to beat this horse, although he's dead: if I'm wrong, then no harm is done. If you're wrong, people can die.

    And, if you're wrong, you'll never hear the end of it, from me. We can be talking about pooper-scooper laws and I'm going to remind you that you were wrong and how it hurt our armed services.
    Replying to both since it's the same point:

    There is no real evidence it won't work, and a mountain of evidence it will. It has worked for other countries, SecDef and Chairman JCS and CinC think it will work and DoD did a review of whether it will work and concluded it would. No one has yet offered any concrete evidence that it will not work.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    What do you base that on?

    Other militaries adapted just fine.
    Two problems with your point:

    1) That's them and not us.

    2) How do you know everything is honkey-dory?

    We can see that everything may not necessarily be, "just fine".

    Head of the British Army General Sir Richard Dannatt said discrimination prevented the full contribution that is "vital for our success in operations".

    Stonewall said it had yet to set up an action plan, but that it would initially focus on recruitment and retention of military personnel.

    BBC NEWS | UK | Army acts to promote gay rights
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Replying to both since it's the same point:

    There is no real evidence it won't work, and a mountain of evidence it will. It has worked for other countries, SecDef and Chairman JCS and CinC think it will work and DoD did a review of whether it will work and concluded it would. No one has yet offered any concrete evidence that it will not work.
    There's no evidence that it will work. There are theories put forth, based on polls, that suggest that; but we all know reliable polls are in the real world.

    It worked for other countries?

    See what the commander of the British Army had to say about how it worked for his soldiers:

    discrimination prevented the full contribution that is "vital for our success in operations".
    Pay special attention to, "prevented the full contribution". If there's not a, "full contribution", in a firefight, someone is going to die. Someone that may not have necessarily been killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's no evidence that it will work. There are theories put forth, based on polls, that suggest that; but we all know reliable polls are in the real world.

    It worked for other countries?

    See what the commander of the British Army had to say about how it worked for his soldiers:



    Pay special attention to, "prevented the full contribution". If there's not a, "full contribution", in a firefight, someone is going to die. Someone that may not have necessarily been killed.
    Before I respond, please link a source for the comment.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Here is another indictment of abolishing DADT. A U.S. General, with extensive field experience says it's a bad idea and back it up with evidence of how a unit can become combat ineffetive.

    Sheehan pointed to the Netherlands, which he said embarked on a process of social engineering in the Dutch military once the Cold War ended. "They declared a peace dividend and made a conscious effort to socialize their military. It included open homosexuality. That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war," he said.

    Sheehan backed his contention that gay soldiers undermined Dutch combat readiness by pointing to the massacre of Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica in 1995. Four-hundred Dutch peacekeepers protecting the area were overwhelmed by Serbian forces, which killed an estimated 8,000 Muslim men and boys.

    VOA | Retired US General: Gay Dutch Troops Contributed to Srebrenica Massacre | News | English
    If you wrong, people will die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Before I respond, please link a source for the comment.
    I already did, but here you go.

    BBC NEWS | UK | Army acts to promote gay rights
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A break down in discipline and unit cohesion. A soldier doesn't provide covering fire for a gay soldier that is advancing against the enemy and that gay soldier is hosed down by the bad guys.

    A straight soldier is seperated from his unit and one of his gay commrades just leaves him, because he's been picked on for being gay and the lost soldier dies.

    The scenarios are virtually infinite.
    Your first scenario would not be prevented by DADT. A soldier could find out now that there was a gay soldier or someone that he believed was gay, and choose not to protect the gay soldier from enemy fire. In that case, the person should be punished severely for allowing his fellow soldier to die because he didn't approve of his sexuality.

    Your second scenario is also not prevented by DADT. In fact, it is far more likely with DADT in place, because if the closeted gay soldier had to listen to a particular soldier express his disgust of gays day in and day out but is fearful of turning the soldier in because, during the investigation, it could be found that the accuser is actually gay and he could be discharged for doing so, then it would be much more effective for a person who really wanted to rid themselves of such a bigot, to just allow him to get killed in combat. However, that gay soldier should too be punished for allowing his fellow soldier to die because he didn't have the courage to stand up to the guy or at least find a way to turn him in or just deal with it.



    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's where you're wrong. It is a right for a soldier to refuse to billet with other soldiers, for numerous reasons. It's covered in Ar 600-20, The Army's Command policy, "Every soldier has the right to work and live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment". So, it's not just about straight soldiers refusing to billet with gay soldiers, it's also about gay soldiers refusing to billet with straight soldiers, because they have the right to, "...live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment".

    What are you going to say when gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers? That's soldier is a bigot? A hetero-phobe? Send him to the stockade for refusing to obey orders.

    I think that alot of you, that oppose DADT, are having trouble from looking at this from more than one demension.
    A soldier would be required to prove that his roommate is actually harassing him. He cannot simply refuse to berth with someone just because a person is gay and the straight soldier believes that the gay guy may sexually assault him just because he is gay. There has to be documented proof that it likely to happen. And if there is proof, then the gay guy would most likely be punished for it and probably discharged for the sexual harassment.

    And the gay soldier would have to have some sort of proof that his safety was threatened by the other soldier, not just his own fear that the soldier might do him harm.

    There will be issues with repealing DADT, but they are not nearly as huge as you are making them out to be. Gays and straights already live together in the military.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, I think the Commandant understands that those scientific polls are worth jack, when the **** hits the fan. You can't even close a sucking chest wound with it.
    Which has nothing to do with why the Cmdt has no idea what will actually happen when the **** hits the fan if he has openly gay troops in his units. In fact, he already does have gay marines who have at least admitted to some of those that they work with that they are gay. One of them came out to his buddy on my lanai in Hawaii. The buddy's reaction was "man, you too? So and so told me he was gay. What is it with all the gay marines coming out to me?" and they moved on to another subject. Most people don't really care if they have to work with gay men/women. And many of those who say that they would care, will most likely see things differently when they actually are working with openly gay men/women. There are other rules in place to deal with those who do or those gay men/women who would cause issues.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  9. #1189
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    A break down in discipline and unit cohesion. A soldier doesn't provide covering fire for a gay soldier that is advancing against the enemy and that gay soldier is hosed down by the bad guys.

    A straight soldier is seperated from his unit and one of his gay commrades just leaves him, because he's been picked on for being gay and the lost soldier dies.

    The scenarios are virtually infinite.
    The scenarios are endless now and we don't see this stuff happening. People are picked on in the miltary and don't leave their bully to die. People still provide cover for those in their unit that they despise. Despite your fears, our military is professional enough to know where the line is that you don't cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There's where you're wrong. It is a right for a soldier to refuse to billet with other soldiers, for numerous reasons. It's covered in Ar 600-20, The Army's Command policy, "Every soldier has the right to work and live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment". So, it's not just about straight soldiers refusing to billet with gay soldiers, it's also about gay soldiers refusing to billet with straight soldiers, because they have the right to, "...live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment".

    What are you going to say when gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers? That's soldier is a bigot? A hetero-phobe? Send him to the stockade for refusing to obey orders.

    I think that alot of you, that oppose DADT, are having trouble from looking at this from more than one demension.
    And if a gay or a straight soldiers is harassing someone, the issue can be dealt with then. The mere existence of a gay soldier is not harassment though. There's no law in the miltary that gurantees you can move billets if you feel uncomfortable. Otherwise the military never would have desegregated.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, I think the Commandant understands that those scientific polls are worth jack, when the **** hits the fan. You can't even close a sucking chest wound with it.
    I have no doubt the Commandant would have put his full faith and support behind this study if it had the results he wanted it to.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Damn it. You know, I really hate it when you and another person post at the same time, saying the same thing, only they said it much better.
    be humble for you are made of earth; be noble for you are made of stars

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