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Thread: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The United States armed forces are the finest fighting force in the history of the world. That's proof that it worked.
    It isn't working for all those who have been put out because of DADT, nor all those who still have to hide their sexuality from those they work with for no other reason than others may be uncomfortable with their relationships.

    And you have zero evidence that the US Armed Forces would cease to be the finest fighting force if gays are allowed to serve openly tomorrow.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The United States armed forces are the finest fighting force in the history of the world. That's proof that it worked.
    I'd say the IDF is just as fine if not finer. We don't border our enemies. We have working models to go by. They work. You can't provide a case why it won't work here without insulting our troops.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The United States armed forces are the finest fighting force in the history of the world. That's proof that it worked.
    Actually no, that is not proof it worked. As fine as our military is, and it is very fine, it can improve, and this might very well improve it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    How exactly? I don't want a general "someone could die. That doesn't explain how exactly that death was caused just because someone is openly gay. You have no evidence whatsoever that it could happen, let alone that it will happen.
    A break down in discipline and unit cohesion. A soldier doesn't provide covering fire for a gay soldier that is advancing against the enemy and that gay soldier is hosed down by the bad guys.

    A straight soldier is seperated from his unit and one of his gay commrades just leaves him, because he's been picked on for being gay and the lost soldier dies.

    The scenarios are virtually infinite.



    Okay, but they don't have a right to not billet with the openly gay person. The unit can choose to allow them the privilege of not billeting with that person, but it isn't a right, anymore than it would be a right to refuse to billet with someone who is a complete slob or smells or who is of a different religion. A unit can try to make billeting changes to make people more comfortable, if it is practical. But they don't have to. Sometimes soldiers/marines/sailors are just forced to suck it up. We had a very big girl in my department who slept completely naked. She was not attractive at all. And she refused to wear clothes to bed. We couldn't get transferred out of that berthing, nor could we have her transferred out. So we all just dealt with it.
    There's where you're wrong. It is a right for a soldier to refuse to billet with other soldiers, for numerous reasons. It's covered in Ar 600-20, The Army's Command policy, "Every soldier has the right to work and live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment". So, it's not just about straight soldiers refusing to billet with gay soldiers, it's also about gay soldiers refusing to billet with straight soldiers, because they have the right to, "...live in a safe and comfortable environment, free from harassment".

    What are you going to say when gay soldiers refuse to billet with straight soldiers? That's soldier is a bigot? A hetero-phobe? Send him to the stockade for refusing to obey orders.

    I think that alot of you, that oppose DADT, are having trouble from looking at this from more than one demension.

    And, I don't think the Marine Corps Cmdt is necessarily a bigot. I do think that he is paranoid and not aware of how scientific polls are actually done and why they are done the way they are.
    Well, I think the Commandant understands that those scientific polls are worth jack, when the **** hits the fan. You can't even close a sucking chest wound with it.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, I think the Commandant understands that those scientific polls are worth jack, when the **** hits the fan. You can't even close a sucking chest wound with it.
    I can't believe that the Commandant doesn't understand that sexual orientation is worth jack, when the **** hits the fan.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually no, that is not proof it worked. As fine as our military is, and it is very fine, it can improve, and this might very well improve it.
    And it very well might not, then what?

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually no, that is not proof it worked. As fine as our military is, and it is very fine, it can improve, and this might very well improve it.
    And, it might not--without some foresight. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", comes to mind to respond to your post.

    I'll continue to beat this horse, although he's dead: if I'm wrong, then no harm is done. If you're wrong, people can die.

    And, if you're wrong, you'll never hear the end of it, from me. We can be talking about pooper-scooper laws and I'm going to remind you that you were wrong and how it hurt our armed services.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    And it very well might not, then what?
    What do you base that on?

    Other militaries adapted just fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Fairness is exactly what I'm talking about. What I've been suggesting all this time is a way for gays to serve, without fear of being discharged and to make this transition as comfortable as possible.



    I hope you're right; from the bottom of my heart, I hope so. But, what if you're wrong? And people die? Or, our combat strength is weakened?

    I agree with allowing gays to serve (which wasn't always my position. I've turned around a little on that issue.) But, the, "I'm gay and in yer face and if you don't like it tuff ****", approach isn't worth someone's life, nor damage to our armed forces. Do you think it's worth it?
    People have died now. I think that it is easier for people to inflict harm on others when the system marginalizes them, making them appear less valuable, not deserving of equal treatment. We can't prevent all violence, but if we're going to have violence, let it be in the open, so that those who commit the violence can be punished in the open.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    What do you base that on?

    Other militaries adapted just fine.
    The fact that it has been in place for 17 years without any evidence that DADT has caused any problems. It really is a simple question, military leaders have said there is a potential problem here so they admit there could be a problem, What happens if their is? Why is it you and other liberals can never accept the FACT that you just could be wrong on an issue? There are consequences for mistakes, are you willing to accept responsibility for yours?

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