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Thread: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No one joined the military to be comfortable.
    Exactly the point I've been making. If there are valid competing interests here, what do we do? Seek compromise, right. That's what DADT is, a compromise. Remember when there was just an outright ban on gays? I do.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Okay, still it would affect morale right? Even if you reject the reasons for their objections as being "bad" or unreasonable, that's not the same as saying there's no impact on morale.

    Well, if gays are forced to serve in silence, if you will, how many people in the military would this actually be. Not too many, right?
    Actually, since most have never actually served with gays, they really don't know how they would react to serving with someone who is openly gay, even if they happen to end up in a unit with a gay person. It is quite likely that there will be no problem with those troops serving with openly gay individuals.

    And I believe that even one person being treated unfairly and/or differently is wrong. I knew at least a dozen or more openly gay individuals in my department on the aircraft carrier. Them not being allowed to actually bring their significant other to command functions is an issue. And I'd bet that most units/commands have at least one gay person in them. And it would have to be hard on those guys' morale to have to hide something that their fellow servicemembers are allowed to essentially flaunt.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Exactly the point I've been making. If there are valid competing interests here, what do we do? Seek compromise, right. That's what DADT is, a compromise. Remember when there was just an outright ban on gays? I do.
    Except there is no valid interest in encouraging intolerance and discrimination. And that what the ban on gays serving openly does.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, since most have never actually served with gays, they really don't know how they would react to serving with someone who is openly gay, even if they happen to end up in a unit with a gay person. It is quite likely that there will be no problem with those troops serving with openly gay individuals.

    And I believe that even one person being treated unfairly and/or differently is wrong. I knew at least a dozen or more openly gay individuals in my department on the aircraft carrier. Them not being allowed to actually bring their significant other to command functions is an issue. And I'd bet that most units/commands have at least one gay person in them. And it would have to be hard on those guys' morale to have to hide something that their fellow servicemembers are allowed to essentially flaunt.
    The result of that big study showed that the soldiers who did serve with gays mostly supported repeal. Those who did not were more likely against it. The real fear was that of the unknown, the gay bogeyman, rather than the living, breathing people in their midst.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Does that mean we should discriminate against Black soldiers? After all, they'd know what they'd be getting into when they signed up. Why can't they just soldier it out?

    I don't get it, you're so worried about troop morale for homophobic soldiers, all while forcing gay soldiers to stay in the closet or face discharge which I bet does wonders for their morale and effectiveness.

    Soldiers are expected to suck it up if that improves combat effectiveness. You'd have a point if the evidence showed that repealing DADT would seriously hamper troop effectiveness. The only problem is that almost all of the evidence says that repeal would have little effect on troop cohesion. All I've seen in support of DADT are some poorly done surveys, flimsy what-ifs, and complete disregard for history and foreign military policy. Even if we completely ignore the whole discrimination/civil rights angle, there still is not much if anything on DADT's side. Just look at history. I guarantee you that opposition to racial integration in the military was greater than it is with gays now. Yet they still went along with it. Were there a few hiccups, yes, but did it seriously hamper troop effectiveness, no. Our allies, the Canadians, the Brits, and the Israelis, all countries with very effective armed forces and soldiers, don't have anti-gay policies.

    Some military personnel might not like it, but as you said, liking everything they do is not in the job description. Like you said, they know that they are signing on for a difficult job where their wishes won't always be respected, but one of the things that makes our military so effective is that personnel are expected to do things that they don't like, and far more often than not deal with it.
    Well the inconvenient truth (to borrow from AlGore) is that there are many more straight troops than there are gay troops, so what would make the fewer troops have to just "suck it up" (interesting word choice btw).

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Remember when 51% was a majority and votes actually happened, instead of these lame "intent to filibuster" votes? I mean, 57 of 100 support this. There's a clear majority. But apparently that's not good enough, ever since the anti-equal rights camp decided that every single bill is filibustered by default and these frail old men ensured that they didn't have to actually speak. The whole tactic is the mark of a coward.
    If they only needed 50 votes I'm sure the Democrats would lower their support to 49.

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Well the inconvenient truth (to borrow from AlGore) is that there are many more straight troops than there are gay troops, so what would make the fewer troops have to just "suck it up" (interesting word choice btw).
    And many of those straight troops have no problem with gay troops serving openly, especially those who have already served with gay troops that they knew were gay. Therefore, those straight troops who are uncomfortable with gay troops serving openly are in a minority, not the majority. Those uncomfortable with gay troops need to get over it.
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_H View Post
    "good guys"? Listen, I've been pretty nice in other threads to people opposed to this civil rights issue, but this is the single most bigoted post I've ever seen on here. It's pathetic that this is even an issue.
    Awww, don't hold it against him. He's probably so happy with the vote that he could hug and kiss each and every one of the 'good guys.'
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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except there is no valid interest in encouraging intolerance and discrimination. And that what the ban on gays serving openly does.
    Yeah, I knew when I used the word "valid" it would illicit a response like this. The thing is, whether troop morale would be affected for "valid" reasons or not is not as important an issue as whether it would be affected at all. The military is different than other jobs. I don't live with my coworkers (much to their relief I'm sure).

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    Re: 'Don't ask' repeal fails in Senate

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The result of that big study showed that the soldiers who did serve with gays mostly supported repeal. Those who did not were more likely against it. The real fear was that of the unknown, the gay bogeyman, rather than the living, breathing people in their midst.
    Yeah, I know. It wasn't surprising either, from my own personal experiences working with openly gay personnel and knowing others who have served with openly gay troopers.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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