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Thread: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I don't see what's so unfair about that. Once he's dead, he no longer needs that property anymore, and his descendents didn't earn it themselves so they don't have a particularly strong claim to make the "slaved his whole life for it" argument. That's not to say that the state should take EVERYTHING; I recognize that people have legitimate interests in providing for their children, and the state should be cognizant of that.

    But at some point, the motivation to provide for one's children stops being an incentive to produce more. I find it difficult to believe that people are going to be less motivated to produce, if they can only leave their kids $10 million instead of $20 million. Therefore estates seem to be an ideal place for the government to tax wealth: the old owner doesn't need it anymore, the new owner didn't do anything to earn it, it's progressive, it's easy, and it's unlikely to significantly change people's economic motivations.

    Utter nonsense. Suppose you tell me if the wealth that a man produces throughout his life is already taxed while amassing it?

    I explained the practical justification for the estate tax. I'm not going to debate your morality because there's really nothing to debate
    You won't discuss the morality of it because you can not. In that argument you lose everytime.

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    We don't pay taxes because the government wants us to. We pay taxes because the founders kept bitching about no taxation without representation. Maybe you should take it up with them. I doubt however you'll go on a long rant about Jefferson and Washington being theives.
    Your utter lack of historical accuracy or knowledge is staggering. Washington passed taxes on good and merchandise. They did not pass a tax on people who died just BECAUSE they died and then scooped up the remenants before their body's were cold. Yes, that would be theft whether no matter who does it. And to correct you - the founders were being taxed by King George without having a SAY in those taxes. I mean, we learned that in like 2nd grade Hatuey. Didn't you ever watch "Schoolhouse Rock" for crying out loud?

    Here's what you missed maybe it'll help your understanding:

    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I don't see what's so unfair about that. Once he's dead, he no longer needs that property anymore, and his descendents didn't earn it themselves so they don't have a particularly strong claim to make the "slaved his whole life for it" argument. That's not to say that the state should take EVERYTHING; I recognize that people have legitimate interests in providing for their children, and the state should be cognizant of that.

    But at some point, the motivation to provide for one's children stops being an incentive to produce more. I find it difficult to believe that people are going to be less motivated to produce, if they can only leave their kids $10 million instead of $20 million. Therefore estates seem to be an ideal place for the government to tax wealth: the old owner doesn't need it anymore, the new owner didn't do anything to earn it, it's progressive, it's easy, and it's unlikely to significantly change people's economic motivations.
    Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous to say what is the proper use of an estate established whatever the purpose. It could be charity or it could be to provide a better life for ones children.

    I know a bunch of people who have continued to work to save enough so their children would be fine. In one instance the person has a child is autistic. He and his wife have been thinking about the well being of their child for much of their adult life, sad. He can stop working when he has enough money not only for his savings but also to insure his child will have somewhere to libe and pay for whomever will take care of him.

    You should also know that what this does is create a sort of full employment deal for tax accountants and lawyers. People who have saved any real money will find ways to legally skip generations through trusts etc.

    The people who usually really get screwed by this type of tax is someone who has most of his/her assets in a profitable small business. Oftentimes those businesses have to be sold off because of the tax.

    It would be great if people thought through real issues versus spewing slanted dogma when talking about things that impact people's lives.

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous to say what is the proper use of an estate established whatever the purpose. It could be charity or it could be to provide a better life for ones children.
    I'm against taxing donations to charity upon one's death. And I'm against taxing inheritances that provide a better life for one's children. But after you have a few million in inheritance, it's no longer providing a better life for one's children. Then it's time to provide a better life for society.

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut
    I know a bunch of people who have continued to work to save enough so their children would be fine. In one instance the person has a child is autistic. He and his wife have been thinking about the well being of their child for much of their adult life, sad. He can stop working when he has enough money not only for his savings but also to insure his child will have somewhere to libe and pay for whomever will take care of him.
    As I said, I think the floor should be high enough that it won't negatively impact anyone who is seeking to provide for their offspring. You don't need to leave them a hundred million dollars to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut
    You should also know that what this does is create a sort of full employment deal for tax accountants and lawyers. People who have saved any real money will find ways to legally skip generations through trusts etc.
    Then those loopholes should be eliminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut
    The people who usually really get screwed by this type of tax is someone who has most of his/her assets in a profitable small business. Oftentimes those businesses have to be sold off because of the tax.
    The Tax Policy Center estimates that only 1.3% of all estates subject to the estate tax are small businesses and/or farms. And of that small number, they only pay one-seventh of the value of the estate on average. And of those, all but a handful have sufficient liquidity that they don't need to sell off the business or farm.

    Impact of Estate Tax on Small Businesses and Farms Is Minimal — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut
    It would be great if people thought through real issues versus spewing slanted dogma when talking about things that impact people's lives.
    It certainly would.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 12-10-10 at 08:17 PM.
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    it does not appear to me that forums membership fully appreciates what this bombshell development exactly portends

    all will, however, very soon

    stay up
    You write in

    like Haikus

    but not really

    sort of

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous to say what is the proper use of an estate established whatever the purpose. It could be charity or it could be to provide a better life for ones children.

    I know a bunch of people who have continued to work to save enough so their children would be fine. In one instance the person has a child is autistic. He and his wife have been thinking about the well being of their child for much of their adult life, sad. He can stop working when he has enough money not only for his savings but also to insure his child will have somewhere to libe and pay for whomever will take care of him.

    You should also know that what this does is create a sort of full employment deal for tax accountants and lawyers. People who have saved any real money will find ways to legally skip generations through trusts etc.

    The people who usually really get screwed by this type of tax is someone who has most of his/her assets in a profitable small business. Oftentimes those businesses have to be sold off because of the tax.

    It would be great if people thought through real issues versus spewing slanted dogma when talking about things that impact people's lives.
    You do bring up a good point about a successful small to medium size business. If/when the government is entitled to 30-40% at the death of the owner, that business would be challenged to survive. On a similar note, a large family farm would face having to be parsed out to accommodate a large estate tax bill.

    Never read the details of how the proposed estate tax legislation is written. Would hope they have a lot of exceptions to account for those type situations....


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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Tax Policy Center estimates that only....
    Well, that settles it, if a liberal/Progressive organ says it, well, it must be true......


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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    It does seem like "confiscation" would be a more appropriate word here than theft. They have a law wrapped around it so it is at least officially legal.

    One of the problems with the estate tax is that for the most part the taxes have already been paid on those assets. (property tax, income tax, capital gains tax). How many times is morally acceptable for the taxman to keep dipping in the same pot??

    On the other hand there is an element of the issue that this really isn't a "death tax". The tax is actually being absorbed by the heir (not the deceased), more in the realm of a "gift tax". A little different but still a tax to be exploited and abused by the insatiable government appetite for money.

    Anyway you look at it. Governments as a whole are tax crazy. They get their piece of every touchpoint of every payment/purchase/transaction/transfer/consumption we do anywhere/everywhere in our existance. Morbidly pathetic....


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    Mobidly pathetic you say ?? Maybe ? But let's not be Silly Now !!!
    Somebody has got to pay for all the Social Services we receive... For example: The building of Hospitals, Schools and Universities, ect. The USA Military, Air Force, Marines, Polices and Firemans ect. Bridges, Roads and Infrastructure of all sort ect. Research and Development in Medicines and Resources ect. ect.... Need I say more ??

    Connect the Dots and Think about the Consequences... The Americas is only One Step ahead of a Third World Status as of Today!!!

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    It voting on letting the Bush tax cuts expire. Essentially it is a vote to prevent taxes from rising. It's not a tax cut, it's a prevention of increasing taxes.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It depends on the state of the economy, and how wide the tax brackets are. If I was in charge of setting income tax brackets, they'd probably look something like this:

    For a family of 4:
    Under $20K: -40%
    $20K to $250K: 25%
    Over $250K: 40%

    Those are just back-of-the-envelope estimates that seem about right to me; I didn't actually calculate how they'd affect the budget.
    And after the economy recovered a bit, I'd probably raise the top bracket to around 45%.



    That's a pretty silly reason for opposing a policy.
    a 15% jump then nothing after 250K

    I would reject that completely



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