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Thread: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Socialist Bernie Sanders has been fillibustering for hours.
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yeah, I don't really have a problem with high estate tax rates, provided that the floor is relatively high. Like Warren Buffett said about his estate planning, he wants to leave his kids enough that they can do anything, but not so much that they can do nothing. Makes sense to me. I understand why someone would be motivated to work hard to provide a nice future for their kids...but I think it's pretty dubious that wealthy people are motivated to be more productive out of a desire to leave their kids $50 million instead of $10 million.

    So yeah, if the government wants to tax estates pretty heavily, that seems to be one of the more economically effective ways to ease some of the high levels of wealth disparity in the country. You tax it at the point when people are least inclined to care (when they're dead), and where it's least likely to have a negative impact on the economy.
    why should you, or anyone else for that matter, get to decide how much is TOO MUCH for me to leave my children? Why should someone be required to pay 55% estate tax, on top of all the taxes that have already been paid on that propery over the years?

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Obama got this.


    Unemployment benefits: $56 billion. The package would also leave in place for 13 months the option to file for extended federal unemployment benefits -- which go as high as 99 weeks in states hit hardest by job loss. The White House estimates it would cost $56 billion. A formal estimate is expected soon from the Congressional Budget Office.
    OK. $56 billion of stuff that the Democrats wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx
    Social Security tax break: $111.7 billion. The package would also offer workers a payroll tax holiday worth 2 percentage points next year, so that instead of paying 6.2% on their first $106,800 of wages, they will only have to pay 4.2%. The measure would cost $112 billion.

    Individual tax credits: $8.3 billion. The compromise framework would also extend for two years the increased value of a number of tax credits that benefit low- and middle-income tax filers, such as the earned income tax credit, the child credit and a revamped tax credit for college costs. The measure would cost $8 billion.

    Business tax breaks: $69 billion. The bill contains more than 40 business tax breaks. Some, like an extension of the research and development credit, has drawn bipartisan support and is typically renewed annually. But also included are roughly $11 billion worth of energy credits and a new temporary option for businesses to write off 100% of their expenses in 2011. That measure would cost $21 billion.
    These things are not concessions. Are Republicans philosophically opposed to ANY of them? Not to my knowledge. This is just stuff that everyone wanted, not stuff that Obama cajoled the Republicans into supporting in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy.
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    why should you, or anyone else for that matter, get to decide how much is TOO MUCH for me to leave my children? Why should someone be required to pay 55% estate tax, on top of all the taxes that have already been paid on that propery over the years?
    Because the death of the property owner is one of the least disruptive times (for both the estate and the economy as a whole) for the government to tax property. It prevents property from concentrating too heavily and reduces wealth disparity.
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because the death of the property owner is one of the least disruptive times (for both the estate and the economy as a whole) for the government to tax property. It prevents property from concentrating too heavily and reduces wealth disparity.
    doesn't really answer the question. What gives someone the right to tell me how much I can leave my children? It's MY money, not someone elses. They are MY kids, not someone elses.

    As for the whole 'wealth disparity' thing, I could care less. If I earned it, it's mine, not yours. If you earned it, it's yours not mine.
    Last edited by Whovian; 12-10-10 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    thanks.......where did you copy that from?
    Bush tax cut deal and surprise stimulus - what they cost - Dec. 7, 2010
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    By my count, in this compromise there was about $300 billion of stuff that only the Republicans wanted (e.g. an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, a low estate tax). There was about $350 billion of stuff that was relatively uncontroversial that everyone could support (e.g. an extension of the EITC, the middle-class tax cuts, corporate expensing). And there was about $60 billion of stuff that only the Democrats wanted (e.g. an extension of unemployment benefits).

    That looks to me like Obama gave the Republicans everything they wanted and then some, and got nothing more than a token concession in exchange.
    Bush tax cut deal and surprise stimulus - what they cost - Dec. 7, 2010
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    doesn't really answer the question. What gives someone the right to tell me how much I can leave my children? It's MY money, not someone elses. They are MY kids, not someone elses.
    Well if you accept the premise that the government has SOME legitimate interest in taxing someone at some point in their lives, then it's just a question of where is the best time to do it. And the death of the property-owner makes logical sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    As for the whole 'wealth disparity' thing, I could care less. If I earned it, it's mine, not yours. If you earned it, it's yours not mine.
    This is just a moral argument that you've accepted as an article of faith. Since I simply disagree, there's really not much debate to be had. Which is why I generally focus on pragmatic arguments instead of moralistic arguments.

    High levels of wealth disparity create all sorts of other economic problems which society ends up paying for (e.g. crime, poverty, unhealthy and poorly educated work forces). Additionally, more concentrated wealth tends to reduce consumer purchasing power, which hurts the economy.
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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    This assumes that spending continues the way it is, with the standard spending increases year over year. I've gotta say, let the taxes go up, and let the unemployment run out. It's time people started tightening their belts and taking jobs that paid less so they can get employed and off the government cheese.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Pelosi pledges to win changes as House Dems reject tax-cut deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK. $56 billion of stuff that the Democrats wanted.



    These things are not concessions. Are Republicans philosophically opposed to ANY of them? Not to my knowledge. This is just stuff that everyone wanted, not stuff that Obama cajoled the Republicans into supporting in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy.
    Demint and the Tea Party Patriots are outraged about them. That's all I know. They didn't want any spending and they wanted the death tax at 0%
    Catawa is my favorite bleeding heart liberal.
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