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Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

randel said:
back on target conservative, stay on target, stay on topic...you have yet to provide where i have ever called the rich 'evil'....still waiting for an apology and a retraction of your statement.....you must be so embarrassed, admitting you do no actual research, no need to 'delve' into something further, if it supports your view.
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Keep diverting, randel, as that is all you can do. I gave you the sites showing actual data which of course you ignored. I continue to give the Obama economic results which you ignore. As usual actual data doesn't matter to a political ideologue. Going to those sites you would see that I posted that actual data but then that would destroy your "feelings" about how great liberalism and Obamanomics are. How in the world can such beautiful rhetoric lead to such terrible results? In the words of Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."
 
Conservative said:
Keep diverting, randel, as that is all you can do. I gave you the sites showing actual data which of course you ignored. I continue to give the Obama economic results which you ignore. As usual actual data doesn't matter to a political ideologue. Going to those sites you would see that I posted that actual data but then that would destroy your "feelings" about how great liberalism and Obamanomics are. How in the world can such beautiful rhetoric lead to such terrible results? In the words of Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain."
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put up or shut up conservative, please show where i have ever called the rich 'evil'...i'm expecting a retraction and an apology...all you are doing now is spinning your wheels, you have come to the realization that you have yet again lost an argument, and have started into your spiel....
 
randel said:
put up or shut up conservative, please show where i have ever called the rich 'evil'...i'm expecting a retraction and an apology...all you are doing now is spinning your wheels, you have come to the realization that you have yet again lost an argument, and have started into your spiel....
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Randel, I don't blame you from diverting from the results. Liberals just cannot figure out how they have been duped by an ideology and thus cannot admit it. The results are what they are, you don't like it, tough, those are the facts.
 
Conservative said:
Randel, I don't blame you from diverting from the results. Liberals just cannot figure out how they have been duped by an ideology and thus cannot admit it. The results are what they are, you don't like it, tough, those are the facts.
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anything you put off as being 'fact', with your own admission that you can't be bothered to 'delve' into something, to further check on somethng, since you can't be bothered to show interest in learning more about something you consider to be a fact, anything you put forward i will take with a HUGE grain of salt...by the way, still waiting for that retraction and apology.
 
randel said:
anything you put off as being 'fact', with your own admission that you can't be bothered to 'delve' into something, to further check on somethng, since you can't be bothered to show interest in learning more about something you consider to be a fact, anything you put forward i will take with a HUGE grain of salt...by the way, still waiting for that retraction and apology.
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Economic numbers are fact, they are actual data, the unemployment is real, the debt is real, the GDP is real, Obamacare is real. Delve into those numbers and tell me why they exist. I know why they exist, the Obama economic policies failed so now he is going back to supply side. Think Obama wanted to admit that the extension of the Bush tax cuts are good for the American people? For two years he wasted over a trillion dollar stimulus plan that generated 4 million more unemployed and added 3 trillion to the debt. He has his rear handed to him on Nov. 2 and thus has admitted his policies have failed. Only the true diehards are still defending him.
 
randel said:
put up or shut up conservative, please show where i have ever called the rich 'evil'...i'm expecting a retraction and an apology...all you are doing now is spinning your wheels, you have come to the realization that you have yet again lost an argument, and have started into your spiel....
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a spiel of "thoughts" that can be summed up in few enough words to fit on a few bumper stickers....

I don't think I have read on DP where anybody really believes that the rich are evil...but certainly a portion of the rich are crooks. Some of them are already in prison, others are awaiting trial.
Entrepenuers who create entire industries are to be applauded, they create many jobs along the way, and increase our productivity.
They should be rich, they deserve it, but the crooks on Wall Street do not deserve to be rich. They deserve to be imprisoned.
They are destroying the economy for personal gain.

When extreme liberals go to prison, it is for some whacked out idealism that is the opposite of extreme conservative whacked out idealism, but I think it is safe to say that imprisoned liberals have done far less harm to the economy.
 
UtahBill said:
a spiel of "thoughts" that can be summed up in few enough words to fit on a few bumper stickers....

I don't think I have read on DP where anybody really believes that the rich are evil...but certainly a portion of the rich are crooks. Some of them are already in prison, others are awaiting trial.
Entrepenuers who create entire industries are to be applauded, they create many jobs along the way, and increase our productivity.
They should be rich, they deserve it, but the crooks on Wall Street do not deserve to be rich. They deserve to be imprisoned.
They are destroying the economy for personal gain.

When extreme liberals go to prison, it is for some whacked out idealism that is the opposite of extreme conservative whacked out idealism, but I think it is safe to say that imprisoned liberals have done far less harm to the economy.
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Except that a large percentage of the Wall Street rich you describe are liberals. A bunch of them. Aristocratic liberals is what I call them.

They're untouchable by taxes at this point because their fortunes have already been made through political deals through Wall Street. They seem to most resent the entrepreneurial route to wealth.
 
Conservative said:
What you seem to lack is a basic understanding of non partisan facts and actual data. There is nothing to understand or reason to delve into how they arrived "at their conclusions." The data is the data and came from the actual results. You don't like the data then change the results, don't attack the messenger.

Your passion for the liberal ideology is hard to understand. Data refutes that ideology but it appears that you simply cannot accept actual data and facts.
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I think there's real room for agreement on this issue. I don't know about anyone else, but I gather that neither of us want the taxes at 50%, and neither of us want them at 0%. It's a question of where in between here we should place them. You think the top tax rate should be 35%, others think it should be 39.6%, less than a 5% difference. Additionally, I agree with you entirely for 80% of the population, and disagree every now and then for the other 20%. This isn't a huge divide. Why do you draw the line at 35%? Cut em to 10% or 5%.

I agree with you mostly in terms of economic growth, but disagree in terms of tax revenue, at least as it stands.

This is an interesting paper if you get time, on laffer curve economics, which can be found here

Should we have tax rates at the maximum point of the laffer curve? No, you have to take economic growth into account.

Also, I take it you were throwing it at someone else, but I have no particular passion for the "liberal ideology", in case you haven't figured that one out yet ;)

Thanks!
 
UtahBill said:
a spiel of "thoughts" that can be summed up in few enough words to fit on a few bumper stickers....

I don't think I have read on DP where anybody really believes that the rich are evil...but certainly a portion of the rich are crooks. Some of them are already in prison, others are awaiting trial.
Entrepenuers who create entire industries are to be applauded, they create many jobs along the way, and increase our productivity.
They should be rich, they deserve it, but the crooks on Wall Street do not deserve to be rich. They deserve to be imprisoned.
They are destroying the economy for personal gain.

When extreme liberals go to prison, it is for some whacked out idealism that is the opposite of extreme conservative whacked out idealism, but I think it is safe to say that imprisoned liberals have done far less harm to the economy.
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I wonder what people who horde money, don't pay a decent wage, don't hire people that they need, don't pay their fair share in taxes should be called?
 
SirPwn4lot said:
I think there's real room for agreement on this issue. I don't know about anyone else, but I gather that neither of us want the taxes at 50%, and neither of us want them at 0%. It's a question of where in between here we should place them. You think the top tax rate should be 35%, others think it should be 39.6%, less than a 5% difference. Additionally, I agree with you entirely for 80% of the population, and disagree every now and then for the other 20%. This isn't a huge divide. Why do you draw the line at 35%? Cut em to 10% or 5%.

I agree with you mostly in terms of economic growth, but disagree in terms of tax revenue, at least as it stands.

This is an interesting paper if you get time, on laffer curve economics, which can be found here

Should we have tax rates at the maximum point of the laffer curve? No, you have to take economic growth into account.

Also, I take it you were throwing it at someone else, but I have no particular passion for the "liberal ideology", in case you haven't figured that one out yet ;)

Thanks!
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That post was directed at another poster, not you. I don't know anyone here proposing a zero tax rate but there definitely is a problem when 47% of the people in this country don't pay anything in Federal Income taxes and that is the point.

I don't see how taking more money from the rich is going to make a difference with regard to the deficit or debt as history shows it won't make a difference and even if it does it is a drop in the bucket amounting to 70 billion or so in revenue which cuts the 1.3 trillion deficit to 1.23 trillion. Wow!

What that does do however is set a dangerous precedence and that should concern everyone. I wonder how many people here think their income and keeping more of it is an expense to the govt?

As I have stated many times we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Much of what the Federal Govt. is spending on duplicates state and local expenses thus is wasted, It really is time to get back to the basic principles upon which this country was built, small, limited central govt. and personal responsibilities.
 
Erod said:
Except that a large percentage of the Wall Street rich you describe are liberals. A bunch of them. Aristocratic liberals is what I call them.

They're untouchable by taxes at this point because their fortunes have already been made through political deals through Wall Street. They seem to most resent the entrepreneurial route to wealth.
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That is a good point as Wall Street actually donated more to Obama than McCain and much of that so called greed is indeed committed by liberals especially when it is govt. greed, greed for power.
 
Erod said:
Except that a large percentage of the Wall Street rich you describe are liberals. A bunch of them. Aristocratic liberals is what I call them.

They're untouchable by taxes at this point because their fortunes have already been made through political deals through Wall Street. They seem to most resent the entrepreneurial route to wealth.
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True, they are our "royalty", they are trust funders, inherited wealth, etc., They are a small part of our moneyed elite. but they are also victims of crooked Wall Street deals. Madoff sure nailed a lot of them. Most of them aren't participating in the daily operations on Wall street. When I say crooks, I mean active participants in shady deals...
 
Obama has lost his nerve. He should have let all the Bush tax cuts expire. Congress would have to scramble and actually do some work for a change.

Normally I would say that we should change things gradually, instead of throwing them out and starting over. But this mess isn't going to be sorted out gradually. Each delay increases debt and deficit.

I know that a lot of people will suffer a little, but even more will complain loudly that they have lost essential services, such as cell phones, cable TV, video games, etc.

Our poor should have to live the life of the middle class of the 50's. Housed and fed, but not entertained on the govt teat.
 
UtahBill said:
True, they are our "royalty", they are trust funders, inherited wealth, etc., They are a small part of our moneyed elite. but they are also victims of crooked Wall Street deals. Madoff sure nailed a lot of them. Most of them aren't participating in the daily operations on Wall street. When I say crooks, I mean active participants in shady deals...
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And we can certainly agree that those people should be exposed and prosecuted. Unfortunately, too many are adept at weaving themselves into Washington. If you're watching Boardwalk Empire like me, it crosses your mind during each episode. (Fantastic show, btw)

Probably half the people Madoff nailed had it coming; the other half didn't.
 
UtahBill said:
Our poor should have to live the life of the middle class of the 50's. Housed and fed, but not entertained on the govt teat.
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Now THAT is a novel concept. Shoot, they should have to live the life I led in college.

What we call poor these days is ridiculous. Many of them don't have income issues; they have money management issues.

It's an insult to the truly poor in this country.
 
Erod said:
And we can certainly agree that those people should be exposed and prosecuted. Unfortunately, too many are adept at weaving themselves into Washington. If you're watching Boardwalk Empire like me, it crosses your mind during each episode. (Fantastic show, btw)

Probably half the people Madoff nailed had it coming; the other half didn't.
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I don't get HBO, won't pay extra to have what is left of my intellect damaged by what is on the TV nowadays...
 
Erod said:
Now THAT is a novel concept. Shoot, they should have to live the life I led in college.

What we call poor these days is ridiculous. Many of them don't have income issues; they have money management issues.

It's an insult to the truly poor in this country.
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I know more than a few people who spent their way into, and back out of, bankruptcy. And turn around afterwards and spend as if those bankruptcies never happened. The new bankruptcy laws were considered harsh by many, even here on DP, but the general rule should be, if you don't have any money, stop spending it !!!!
 
UtahBill said:
I don't get HBO, won't pay extra to have what is left of my intellect damaged by what is on the TV nowadays...
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I don't watch a single show on TV other than sports, news, and history-related programming.

The few exceptions have included mostly HBO shows. Band of Brothers might be the best movie (series) I ever witnessed of any kind. John Adams was fantastic, too.

The only ongoing series I ever really got into was the Sopranos, and Boardwalk Empire is similar. If you like time pieces (which I love), it's extremely well done, set in the 1920s along the Boardwalk, and it deals a lot with both the local and national politics of the time, while it shows the rise of organized crime during prohibition.

It covered Harding's baby-mama, it has Lucky Luciano and Al Capone, and yet it's still fictional overall. Very fascinatingly conceived show.
 
The Prof said:
obama, top recipient of aig contributions: Obama Top Recipient of AIG’s Hefty Campaign Contributions - The Center for Public Integrity

geithner and dodd grandfathered those obscene aig bonuses: Treasury officials explicitly allowed AIG bonuses - Los Angeles Times

geithner's fed instructed aig to keep ugly secrets from the sec: Geithner's New York Fed Pushed AIG To Keep Sweetheart Deals Secret (READ THE AIG EMAILS)

deal with it
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But that doesn't compute with what the Obama supporters believe. You have no business confusing them with actual facts, LOL
 
randel said:
how is the market going up benefiting him? same argument i've had with conservative, just because the stock market is up, doesnt mean any jobs are being created....how do you define a recession ending? personally, i'd say it is when businesses are adding people to payroll, and the unemployment rate coming down, and people spending more, not just a set of numbers going up, and stockholders getting paid dividends.
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How is that relevant? You seem to think that the only reason why rich should not be soaked is to create jobs

there are lots of reasons

and I find a progressive income tax to be an abomination
 
Erod said:
Actually, things were much better before those tax cuts.

And I suppose you liked those 18 percent interest rates on home loans in the early 80s, too?

Optimism spurned the 80s resurgence, not high taxes. Getting rid of Carter with a small-government platform gave business and investors reason to act; hence, the turnaround. Getting rid of trumped-up gasoline rationing helped. Showing the world we meant business (such as Iran) helped. Speaking openly of American exceptionalism helped.

As soon as we started putting the 60s liberals at bay, things started turning around.
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A very nice story.... perhaps you could sell it to a network. If you were really paying attention, however, you would realize that the economic growth of the 25 years or so that began in the early 80's was fueled by the advent of the personal computer, cheap processing power, cheap data storage, networking and the Internet, which collectively revolutionized business in as dramatic a way as the steam power fueled the industrial revolution. The software industry, as we know it today, was essentially created in the late '70s and early '80s..... this romantic notion that tax and politics had much to do with it is fantasy, and frankly seems contrary to the conservative/liberitian notion that government can do anything positive in an economy (or even matters).....
 
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upsideguy said:
A very nice story.... perhaps you could sell it to a network. If you were really paying attention, however, you would realize that the economic growth of the 25 years or so that began in the early 80's was fueled by the advent of the personal computer, cheap processing power, cheap data storage, networking and the Internet, which collectively revolutionized business in as dramatic a way as the steam power fueled the industrial revolution. The software industry, as we know it today, was essentially created in the late '70s and early '80s..... this romantic notion that tax and politics had much to do with it is fantasy, and frankly seems contrary to the conservative/liberitian notion that government can do anything positive in an economy (or even matters).....
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Did anyone teach you what the word incentive means? Also what hand did the govt. have in creating those wonderful items you mentioned? Why did you go into business for yourself? Think about it.
 
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