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Thread: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    That was the biggest joke of a "tax benefit" I've ever heard of.

    Any businessman stupid enough to fall for that isn't in business anymore anyway. LOL
    How did you like the parts that said, "certain small businesses", and, "key small businesses"? I'm sure they only applied to minorities and, "green indsutry", businesses. Sure as hell didn't apply to everyone; which made them a ****ing joke. But, look who pushed them. He's a ****ing joke, too.
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Well, the stock market is liking the news of extending the Bush tax rates, as the DOW closed at its highest point in three years today.

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Well, the stock market is liking the news of extending the Bush tax rates, as the DOW closed at its highest point in three years today.
    and as a working person am I suppose to give a flying fig about that?
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and as a working person am I suppose to give a flying fig about that?
    It means money is entering the market, which is a good sign. Some money will go into the market, some into real estate, perhaps some into homebuilding, some into banks (to be loaned)......all of which generally trends to business expansion and hiring.

    You can't build a new Target or auto plant in a day.

    And this is PRIVATE money, which is real money. Stimulus money is just printed and borrowed, so it's not real capital.
    Last edited by Erod; 12-08-10 at 06:47 PM.

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    My personal choice would have been not only to not extend unemployment, but to rollback the prior "emergency extensions". I would also increase the employee portion of the SS payroll contribution by 5%. I would use that money to extend the tax cuts for only those households making in excess of $250k per year. I would allow the tax cuts to expire for those below $250k.

    Anything to hasten the revolution.
    Last edited by snodog; 12-08-10 at 07:24 PM.

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by snodog View Post
    My personal choice would have been not only to not extend unemployment, but to rollback the prior "emergency extensions". I would also increase the employee portion of the SS payroll contribution by 5%. I would use that money to extend the tax cuts for only those households making in excess of $250k per year. I would allow the tax cuts to expire for those below $250k.

    Anything to hasten the revolution.
    Ironically, this would be more financially responsible than what we got.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except you're presenting it as if it is a definite that it will impact it that much, in hopes of playing to peoples emotions rather than logic. Its reasonable to suggest that cuts on the police or the transit budget COULD have a negative affect...the question of course though that is more important is how much of a negative affect. Is it a 1% higher likilihood that you're going to get mugged, or a 50%? Are potholes going to go from one every once in a while to two every once in a while, or to a new one every day? From your words, you seem to be implying much of the cuts would come from those two places...since that's where you IMMEDIETELY suggested the cuts would go without mentioning anything else...and that somehow the cuts would be significantly impacting.

    And if you don't think that they're definitely going to have a significant impact, there was really no reason to try and throw out such an emotionally charged argument as to why it can't be done.
    If I wanted to play to people's emotions, I'm sure I could find a story about how a sex offender was released early due to budget constraints and raped again. I was merely pointing out a likely consequence that wasn't over the top. BTW, less police coverage logically does mean an increase in crime. Crime waves are usually answered with adding more police officers for additional coverage and presence.

    I don't mean to imply that much of the cuts would result in those things happening. There is a great number of examples that I could have used like Jan Brewer's Death Panels. It's also entirely possible that people who previously would have been covered under state Medicaid might be dropped like some of the people awaiting transplants in Arizona have. That's a death sentence. This is also not hypothetical. While people dying is emotional, it doesn't discount the argument.

    Automotive repairs are not an emotionally charged argument. It's not like I called them a fetus or parasite or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So they should've just ignored their constituents? You're creating a self fulfilling prophecy when you lament that people have no power and then basically are saying politicians should ignore the people. Not to mention, the top 2% were set to expire just the same as anyone elses, so not dealing with that now was just as foolish if you felt it was an issue than not dealing with all of it, because doing nothing defaulted to letting it raise. If they felt that NO ONES taxes should raise then they had to act NOW because by doing nothing about it the default was that it would raise.
    I'm not saying that politicians should ignore the people. They generally do ignore the people. And here you are suggesting a fallacy of false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be either everyone's tax cut is extended or no one's is. You could give 98% an extension. You could give 50% an extension. What is so bad about giving a break to people who could really use it, while those who aren't facing a personal economic crisis are asked to pay a little more in the interest of the greatest country in the world as a whole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not a strawman, it was hyperbole to match your ridiculous hyperbole of the rich having all the power and using it for nothing but their own greed.
    It's a strawman because you are claiming that I was using hyperbole when I clearly wasn't. Wealthy people have more power, not all the power. I didn't say that they used it for their own greed. Maybe you got that from Conservative when he kept asking, "What' wrong with people keeping more of their money?" What sacrifices has the government asked of the people since going to war? We lost some privacy, not many cared. War is not free. Especially when we have been fighting halfway around the world in a place nicknamed "The Graveyard of Empires" for almost a decade. Long protracted long distance wars are a burden on an economy. I bet if China was policing the planet instead of us, we would be buying their debt. (Of course, this is if everything else was the same as it is now and not under Chinese rule.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your made it out that you had an issue that "2% of the population" was controlling what we do about revenue. You then went on to say Politicians and Spin doctors fell in that 2%. I'm simply pointing out that its rather hypocritical for you to complain about the 2% controlling revenue when, by your definition of that 2%, EVERY government issue is controlled by that 2% and that 2% is actually representing both sides of the revenue issue right now...because there's politicians and spin doctors arguing on both sides.
    I didn't say EVERY issue. I'm sure some issues they don't really care about. The issues they do care about they do exert their influence on. That is my belief.

    "The masses are asses" is a quote I heard a long time ago and I think it has a ring of truth to it.

    Most people watch the boob tube to get their information. And most of them aren't glued to it every night watching the pundits. That's the whole reason these pundits go out there and spread their talking points. It's not in the interest of honest intellectual discussion. They are too well educated to not realize the fallacious arguments they use aren't honest, but they know how effective they are because "the masses are asses".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You were attempting to instill negative emotions by invoking classism by complaining about the "top 2%" controlling what happens when revenue which is a rather irrelevant comment to make considering by your own definition the top 2% control EVERYTHING that the government does in EVERY instance. Its the political equivilent of shouting at someone for spraying your chest with a squirt gun in the middle of a down pour. Its obvious disingenuous and being done for ulterior reasons.
    I didn't say they control EVERYTHING the govt. does in EVERY instance.

    It's the reality. The top 2% of wage earners have more control and influence than the voters. I don't hate them. It is what it is. If I had the money, I'd spend a couple grand to give them my opinion face to face on issues important to me. I'll bet they are more likely to consider a financial supporter's opinion. If I was in that income bracket I might have to decide to cut benefits or lay off employees. I may find it profitable to outsource work. But if this need for profit commercially hurts the country's general citizenry, I wouldn't mind paying a bit more in my own personal taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And again, as I said, its a difference in philosophy. I'll take a small portion, relative in time, of people being severely harmed for the (highly plausable in my mind) possability of a large portion being comfortable in the long run. The alternative, based on what you're suggesting, to me is harming a huge amount of people over a long period of time with no real hope for improvement, just not as bad of pain as quickly.

    To give an analogy...if we have two groups of 10 people taken hostage. There's a choice where you could do one of two things:

    1. The 10 will be housed in bad conditions for five years, with two of them dieing and two being severely injured with it being 50/50 if they live or die. However, after 5 years, they're all are freed.

    2. All 10 get routinely beat, but never to the point of serious injury or death. They are given moderate living conditions but will be held there for the rest of their lives, as will any of their kids, and their kids kids, and onward.

    To me, in such a theoritical, I'd go with number 1. While more life, in a technical sense, is preserved in number 2 I would actually prefer number 1. This is because that while some life is lost, the majority of others are actually able to LIVE their lives to the fullest and those that come from them in the future will be free to do so as well. On the flip side, number 2 is perpetually living in a crappy existance, with the number of people exposed to said bad existance increasing each time new children are born into it. They're alive, but they have no real way to truly live to the fullest.

    At its hearts its the great difference in philosophy between liberals and conservatives and the reason I think there will always be a divide in this country. To me the difference is clears. Conservatives want people to be able to reach the highest of highs and accept that to have that people will also hit the lowest of lows, with the distribution of the rest falling along that trajectory in between. Liberals want people primarily to be comfortable and equitable, wanting a relatively steady middle baseline with little deviation up or down. And I think often when it comes to economic type issues that's the real heart of contention.
    The middle class is struggling. I think that's generally in dispute. One side says, "Well, that's economic Darwinism." The other side says, "We are better than this."
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I guess that's why we lost a net of 239,000 jobs this summer? Because unemployment was staving off the loss of more jobs?
    Correct. We could have lost more.
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  9. #219
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and as a working person am I suppose to give a flying fig about that?
    yeah the thought of other people making money seems to really bother lots on the left these days



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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    yeah the thought of other people making money seems to really bother lots on the left these days
    its the wrong people Dude... the freakin wrong people.

    But then, you knew that already.
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