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Thread: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

  1. #181
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I expect to hear none of these right-wing Republicans complaining about the size of the deficit over the next two years....seeing that the GOP will be responsible now for adding trillions to the deficit.


    But Obama won't be?
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Exactly!! And most people in the higher tax brackets had a lot of deductions. Most of those have been taken away over time. People then didn't pay a much different actual tax than they are paying today. the difference is the size of the govt. then vs. now.
    special deductions, right? not available to the middle class?
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  3. #183
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Exactly!! And most people in the higher tax brackets had a lot of deductions. Most of those have been taken away over time. People then didn't pay a much different actual tax than they are paying today. the difference is the size of the govt. then vs. now.
    Perhaps some did. Perhaps some did not. Perhaps some had more than others.

    And today, people also have deductions to lower their tax liability from the top rate.
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  4. #184
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You are making the typical, ridiculous, and idiotic strawman fallacy of what I actually said.

    I never said that lawlessness will run amok. It will increase due to early releases and cuts in police coverage.
    And that naturally it would lead to my car being stolen. Cut in money given to states to pay police does not guarantee increase in crime, let alone significant enough that things such as cars being stolen are a routine enough thing that you can throw it out there as an obvious example of why it must not be cut.

    Call your local auto repair shop and ask them what it would cost to replace a tire, rim, tie rod and A-arm assembly. Then compare that to what your think your increase in taxes would be. Sometimes in heavy traffic you can't avoid every pothole.
    Again, you're assuming there's going to be a plethora of potholes that it is so impossible to avoid that i'm guaranteed to have a front end incident. I think that's ridiculous exaggeration.

    Yet for some reason nobody is seriously talking about reducing spending. Instead we are talking about tax cuts for the top 2%.
    Because there was literally 1 month to act before it went up for EVERYONE, regardless of what anyone thought. Things that have a ticking timer on them generally get tackled first.

    Those people in the polls aren't controlling anything. They support cutting spending, but they won't make it happen. They certainly don't control the media cycle which has us talking about tax cuts instead of spending cuts. I blame the politicians and the spin doctors in the media. They fit into the top 2%.
    Ahh, yes, I gotcha. The evil wealthy, controlling everything.

    Nevermind that by that logic if the tax rates did go up, for the top 2% or for everyone, then it'd still be decided by the Top 2%.

    Actually, by that logic, every decision made on every issue every day in the united states is only controlled by the top 2%. Funny though, I don't hear the demonization of them when the "Top 2%" pushes for health care, or the "top 2%" pushes for global warming legislation", or other sort of stuff...since you know, politicians and spin doctors = the top 2%.

    I understand your point. But voters really have no power. You get to vote for one of 435 House Representatives. You can unanimously vote your representative in or out, but it won't change the other 434 representative's minds. Term limits aren't a fix-all, but perhaps that would help.
    Absolutely agree with you on term limits. Beyond that though, while I agree with you with regards to voter power I think if you're taking it from that angle your use of the top 2% as a complaint is nothing but a bit of a strawman because it would apply to everything, including both sides of this particular issue.

    Using your addiction analogy. You can't help someone until they have hit their bottom. Collapse is the only thing that will change how Washington operates. Unfortunately, a balanced budget amendment isn't even being considered. Not even by the Tea Partiers.
    I haven't heard much talk of the budget as of yet since, as I said, you had a time sensitive issue right now. Proposing an amendment concerning a balanced budget is something I'm going to watch for in the next year since I believe that was something on the Contract From America that a good deal of new house members signed onto.

    That said, you're right, often you can't help someone till they hit rock bottom. You're not going to hit rock bottom by feeding their addiction.

    The problem is that there are no guarantees that the government will do its part.
    Nope, there's not. But, and I know this is likely the difference in mentalities here, I will happily take some bad times for the (large in my mind) chance that it will cause a rebound into long term good times rather than having a long, drawnout, continual decline.

    I'll take hitting rock bottom and bouncing back up then slowly floating down, down, down, without ever a hope of rising back to the top.

  5. #185
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    what were tax rates in the 50's ?
    Are you trying to confuse somebody with actual facts and the historical record?[/QUOTE]yes, it is easily done...and he won't respond to direct questions...diversions are expected...
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  6. #186
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    Sorry for not responding soon, I was out doing some research. Took me forever to find actual credible statistics for US federal income tax revenue (Google was astoundingly little help, and when it did find some, the author never sourced em)

    Anyway, I finally found some on Office of Management and Budget website, then I personally standardized the income tax revenue against 2009 dollars. I made a graph and added in the presidents, and the locations of the Bush/Reagan tax cuts.

    I'm not trying to make any sort of point. This is just data. Data that I'd been wanting for a while and I thought I'd share with you guys. Sorry for it being a bit large, I couldn't shrink it and it needs the pixels anyway:



    This is only revenue from Federal income tax.

    You can find a larger version of my graph here.

    You can find the OMB stats on Revenue from 1934-2009 here.

    You can find the Seattle.gov stats on Federal CPI here.

    A comparison with income rates are suggested, unfortunately there is little way to graph them, as they vary according to income class, nonetheless, I highly recommend you check them out here. This is by far the most detailed review of income tax levels I've seen.

    You can find the exact values for Federal income tax revenue adjusted to 2009 dollars here. I created it, so it's hosted here. Unfortunately the forum won't let me post excel files, so I chucked it in a .zip, which can be found below:

    Attachment 67113190

    Apart from that... good day. If you have any questions just gimme a yell.
    No problem, my question however is why you are so concerned about how much revenue goes to the federal govt? The numbers I posted came from bea.gov which gets their data from the U.S. Treasury dept. It is actual revenue.

    Here are some good NON PARTISAN sites

    BLS link, create own chart
    Employment, Hours, and Earnings from the Current Employment Statistics survey (National)

    Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

    BEA links GDP and Receipts/Expense
    U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

    U.S. Treasury
    Current Report: Combined Statement of Receipts, Outlays, and Balances of the United States Government (Combined Statement): Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service


    Please don't adjust date for current dollars as current dollars today had no affect in the past. If you want to get the true information go to the checkbook of the United States, the U.S. Treasury Dept. Nothing else matters thus I have no interest in the sites listed as they don't change the reality of actual data.

  7. #187
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    special deductions, right? not available to the middle class?
    Deductions are available to anyone. Please explain to me why 47% of the U.S. income earners didn't pay any Federal income taxes last year and that number has been high since the Bush tax cuts were signed into law. All this outrage over the rich getting bigger tax cuts but totally ignoring that the rich paid a greater share of the taxes after the Bush tax cuts. Doesn't fit your agenda, does it?

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps some did. Perhaps some did not. Perhaps some had more than others.

    And today, people also have deductions to lower their tax liability from the top rate.
    Yet today, according to the IRS the top 2% are paying a higher share of the taxes than ever before, all with the Bush tax cuts.

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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yet today, according to the IRS the top 2% are paying a higher share of the taxes than ever before, all with the Bush tax cuts.
    and you have evidence of this claim?
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    Re: Obama Announces 'Framework' for Deal With Congress to Extend Bush-Era Tax Cuts

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Are they going to change the deal once they are in charge?

    The unemployed should get help until the economy recovers.

    The budget deficit is an expense.
    Obama said the economy has recovered, he has saved or created millions of jobs so what triggers stopping payments to the unemployed?

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