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Thread: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

  1. #441
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    As much as I respect anyone's life.
    You must have no respect for anyone and wish everyone were dead.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #442
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    You must have no respect for anyone and wish everyone were dead.
    Actually, I feel the opposite. I get maybe some people can not understand that.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You seem to be rather new here so I'll take it easy on ya...
    Hasn't stopped anyone else so don't hold back :P

    First off, there are reasons that certain information is considered "Secret, or Top Secret" You don't have a need for access to that information.
    We, as citizens, need to know what our government is doing. If it is supposedly representing us, shouldn't we know how we are being represented just in case they are making a mistake?

    That is what you elect representatives for. There are a number of reasons to keep information from getting public that don't have some 'America sucks' reason for letting it loose. And Assange's reason stated by him was to cause chaos in order to bring down governments like ours. Do you believe that is a noble quest of his?
    Regardless of his intentions, I still think informing the people is a good thing. We deserve to know what is being done in our country and by our country. After all, the constitution said the government should be by the people, for the people. How is that so if we don't even know what the government is doing?

    Did you ever tell someone something that you didn't necessarily getting out to everyone?
    Yes, but I am not in a position of power.

    America can still prosecute him. Check your history, and Law.
    I do not doubt you. But I think it shouldn't be so.


    That would be PFC Bradley Manning held in Ft. Benning I think.
    Though I think Wikileaks should back him up legally, it was his choice, and a noble one but a dangerous one.


    The horrors eh. Well, no one that has ever served would tell you that War is a cakewalk. But no, it isn't about American policy entirely, it is about being able to conduct diplomacy, and having those that deal with us able to speak without thinking that it will end up on line for all to see.
    America does not go to war because someone said something without speaking. Every war is planned out and well articulated for one main goal. That goal is to keep America a global super power. But obviously wars are not a cakewalk. But a lot of unnecessary deaths can and should be avoided.

    Whom are the 'innocents' in your eyes?
    Civilians that were killed.

  4. #444
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Gotta kind of agree with Redress here, and its part of the grey area in regards to Wikileaks being "The Press".

    Research a large variety of matters, meticulously double and triple checking things with various sources, and relaying information in a narritive fashion of a news report is significantly different then directly reprinting classified information in essentially its original format.

    Would you consider someone that just grabs a domain name, scans a bunch of government files into a computer, and then throws them up on the website a "journalist"?
    The argument you seem to be proposing (as well as others) is that there is a différence between the right to disseminate information by the press to that of the right to disseminate information by the people. You ask if there’s a legal distinction to be made upon whom has the right to publish material and who doesn’t, submitting a journalist or member of the press versus any random person or entity.



    The SCOTUS as well as most legal scholers believe the Freedom of the Press Clause has no significance independent of the Freedom of Speech Clause. The First Amendment confers no special privileges on journalists. In fact, most courts have determined that Freedom of the Press has derived from Freedom of Speech.

    So as it stands today, as well as the previous two hundred plus years under the First Admendment, whether one is a highly qualified and recognised journalist working for a longstanding, internationally recognized entity of the press, some blogger, some guy speaking from a street corner, or a domain name, all are within their rights to disseminate material either through newspapers, blogs, streetcorners, lectures, speeches, etc

    In other words, as is related to the subject of dissemination of information pertained to this thread, there is no legal distinction between wikileaks and The NYT. You and I have the right as any within "the press" to disseminate information.

  5. #445
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck naked View Post
    The argument you seem to be proposing (as well as others) is that there is a différence between the right to disseminate information by the press to that of the right to disseminate information by the people. You ask if there’s a legal distinction to be made upon whom has the right to publish material and who doesn’t, submitting a journalist or member of the press versus any random person or entity.



    The SCOTUS as well as most legal scholers believe the Freedom of the Press Clause has no significance independent of the Freedom of Speech Clause. The First Amendment confers no special privileges on journalists. In fact, most courts have determined that Freedom of the Press has derived from Freedom of Speech.

    So as it stands today, as well as the previous two hundred plus years under the First Admendment, whether one is a highly qualified and recognised journalist working for a longstanding, internationally recognized entity of the press, some blogger, some guy speaking from a street corner, or a domain name, all are within their rights to disseminate material either through newspapers, blogs, streetcorners, lectures, speeches, etc

    In other words, as is related to the subject of dissemination of information pertained to this thread, there is no legal distinction between wikileaks and The NYT. You and I have the right as any within "the press" to disseminate information.
    Just outta curiosity...are you a lawyer perchance? Cause your post sounded kind of lawyery to me. lol
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  6. #446
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Part in Bold: Really? Why would something like this be kept secret? One would think that it would be more beneficial to put it in the publics eye so more pressure can be applied...

    CHINA CONVENTIONAL ARMS TRANSFERS TO IRAN
    And do you by chance have some position in American diplomacy, I know I don't. But I do think I understand the basics, and some of them include not releasing information that would be publicly embarrassing to one country or another that we are involved with. For example. We are talking to country A who gives us information on country B that is an ally or some of our enemies but that we do business with, that information gets out into the public and embarrasses country B who then turns and scolds country A and us for the information leaking out. Do you think that the relationships between those two countries is the same from that point forward?

    Underlined part: No the reason that I elect officials is to represent what I want done in my country. No one elects their reps to hide secrets from them. To say anything else is disengenous at best.
    And what exactly is that?

    Red part: Proof please.
    Suggested reading: Assange: International Subversive - Grendel Report

    Only a fool does that. The best way to keep a secret is to not tell anyone. Otherwise you just set yourself up for a fall.
    Uh huh...So are going to be honest in this discussion?

    Perhaps you should check your history and law instead. There are currently senetors that are trying to get the Shield Act passed specifically so that they can legally charge Assaunge with a crime. As it stands they have no legal grounds to charge him. Otherwise the Shield Act would not be necessary if the Espionage Act was all that was needed.
    Um yeah.....

    "What we're investigating is a crime under U.S. law," Philip J. Crowley, the chief State Department spokesman, said Tuesday. "The provision of 250,000 classified documents from someone inside the government to someone outside the government is a crime."

    His remarks mirrored sharp words Monday from Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr., who said prosecutors are weighing not only espionage but other crimes possibly committed by the Australian citizen, who through his website postings has embarrassed U.S. diplomats and many foreign governments they deal with.

    "We have a very serious criminal investigation that's underway, and we're looking at all of the things that we can do to try to stem the flow of this information," Holder said.

    Holder added that as prosecutors look beyond espionage, "there are other statutes, other tools that we have at our disposal." Among them, law enforcement sources said, is charging Assange with receiving stolen property.

    WikiLeaks, Julian Assange: U.S. may seek extradition of WikiLeaks founder - latimes.com
    As for History you should read up on the NY Times court case in reference to the Pentagon Papers.
    Trying to have it both ways now are we? You can't say that Assange is unchargeable due to his status as an Aussie, or that he didn't expressly steal the documents themselves, then turn and say that our constitutional protections of 1st Amendment as a journalist (which he is NOT) applies.

    It does have part bearing on this debate.
    And what part is that?

    Correct. Being the one that actually stole the information and he is an American Citizen he can and will no doubt be charged under the espionage act and even possibly treason. Though I don't think that he has been charged as of yet. Last I heard he hadn't been anyways.
    I believe that treason is appropriate in this case, and in my opinion it is long past due that some of America's traitors be actually charged and dealt with.

    I would imagine that he would be talking about civilians. You know..the "collateral damage" of wars.
    Do you believe that a country like America cares nothing for those civilians killed?

    j-mac
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  7. #447
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And do you by chance have some position in American diplomacy, I know I don't. But I do think I understand the basics, and some of them include not releasing information that would be publicly embarrassing to one country or another that we are involved with. For example. We are talking to country A who gives us information on country B that is an ally or some of our enemies but that we do business with, that information gets out into the public and embarrasses country B who then turns and scolds country A and us for the information leaking out. Do you think that the relationships between those two countries is the same from that point forward?
    Lets pose a scenario here. Lets say that China does all that is in the link I previously provided and the weapons end up in terrorist hands as posed in that link. Those terrorists decide to use one of those weapons on US soil. Which do you think would be more beneficial to the US? Embarressing China by releaseing that info before the attack or keeping it a secret and people finding out that China were the ones that sold those weapons when they knew it could get into terrorist hands? Which do you think would cause more harm?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And what exactly is that?
    Lots of things. More than I can list at the moment. But keeping secrets is definately NOT one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Sorry, not even going to bother with grendel.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Uh huh...So are going to be honest in this discussion?
    I have already been honest. Whats your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Um yeah.....
    No body ever said that they couldn't try. Weather they get some where with it is another thing. Most of what they have said though is along the lines of posturing. After all...can't very well keep up their image if they don't act outraged right?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Trying to have it both ways now are we? You can't say that Assange is unchargeable due to his status as an Aussie, or that he didn't expressly steal the documents themselves, then turn and say that our constitutional protections of 1st Amendment as a journalist (which he is NOT) applies.
    Actually yes I can state so. The 1st amendment applies to everyone. Not just American citizens. The espionage act however since it is not a part of the Constitution but is a US law does not apply outside of the US jurisdiction.

    And btw, as has already been linked and showed in this thread a news source can be applied to anything that disseminates news. Even pamphlets are protected under the 1st amendment as they are considered a part of the "Press". So yes, Assaunge as part of the wikileaks news agency is protected under our first amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And what part is that?
    Assaunge is a part of a news agency. Therefore he is protected under the 1st amendment. If you seriously think that his lawyers won't present this fact in any type of court hearing inside the US you would be sorely mistaken. It doesn't matter if you think that wikileaks isn't a news agency. The courts have already deemed it so via a court ruleing in another case.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I believe that treason is appropriate in this case, and in my opinion it is long past due that some of America's traitors be actually charged and dealt with.
    In regards to Manning, most definately.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Do you believe that a country like America cares nothing for those civilians killed?
    Over all, yes we do care for those civilians killed. But with things like the following happen you have to wonder sometimes....

    Link
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 12-13-10 at 09:15 PM.
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  8. #448
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    I have a question that directly relates to this issue. Being a conservative and supporting Wikileaks because I dislike a big AND deceitful government, does that make me a rarity? Where do both the Left and Right reside on this issue, since both Hillary Clinton and Obama are against Wikileaks, as well as a majority of conservatives. Is there really a definitive side that is for or against Wikileaks, is it an issue everyone is primarily against, or is there simply a lot of different factions for and against Wikileaks? Basically, I'm trying to see where everyone generally stands on this issue.

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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Myself: I have always valued the ability of the state to conduct its affairs without feeling constrained by actors who are likewise unconstrained. We have internal mechanisms for this sort of thing, and I do not value what they are doing.

    I'm not really going to go into much detail. For the most part, I did find my opinions rather well-versed by another author from National Affairs.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-13-10 at 11:41 PM.
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    Re: Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I have a question that directly relates to this issue. Being a conservative and supporting Wikileaks because I dislike a big AND deceitful government, does that make me a rarity? Where do both the Left and Right reside on this issue, since both Hillary Clinton and Obama are against Wikileaks, as well as a majority of conservatives. Is there really a definitive side that is for or against Wikileaks, is it an issue everyone is primarily against, or is there simply a lot of different factions for and against Wikileaks? Basically, I'm trying to see where everyone generally stands on this issue.
    I praise you for your criticism of deceitful government. Real conservatives like... Ron Paul agree with you, so I don't see you as being so on the fringe. This isn't a liberal/conservative issue.

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