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Wikileaks founder Julian Assange arrested in London

Catz Part Deux said:
Those interviews covered material that was considered classified. Whether the document is published in its entirety, or the information is provided in a verbal conversation that includes the details of the information, it's the same, legally speaking.
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What classified information did they publish?

And are you really equating investigative journalists with a hacker running a website?
 
Redress said:
What classified information did they publish?

And are you really equating investigative journalists with a hacker running a website?
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I'm sorry, my apologies. The journalist who published the Pentagon Papers was Neil Sheehan and they were published in the New York Times. Yes, those papers WERE classified.

So, did that make the NYT guilty of espionage?
 
Redress said:
I don't think it is the main part of our system, and I think deterrent is where it is least effective.
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It's not deterrment/deterrent. It's DETERRENCE. What, exactly, are you hoping to deter? You want to create a country in which information about government wrongdoing is never leaked, and if it is, those who publish it are guilty of espionage/terrorism?

Have you really stopped to consider the ramifications of this action and what it would mean for this country in the long run?

Do you actually believe that the military/federal law enforcement agencies/governmental agencies never make mistakes? Should never be held publicly accountable?

HOW EXACTLY DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENS?

What if the Taguba Report had been classified (because the contents might cause injury to the U.S.'s reputation and/or might endanger military service personnel)?

Would it have been traitorous to have published stories on the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib?
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
It's not deterrment, it's not deterrent. It's DETERRENCE. What, exactly, are you hoping to deter? You want to create a country in which information about government wrongdoing is never leaked, and if it is, those who publish it are guilty of espionage/terrorism?

Have you really stopped to consider the ramifications of this action and what it would mean for this country in the long run?
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wait, so manning deserves a medal?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I'm sorry, my apologies. The journalist who published the Pentagon Papers was Neil Sheehan and they were published in the New York Times. Yes, those papers WERE classified.

So, did that make the NYT guilty of espionage?
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I think the issue is that the basis for the NYT's not being found guilty of espionage (because there was a court case) was due to their rights under the Freedom of the Press.

The issue that comes in here is whether or not something like "Wikileaks" legitimately can be considered "The Press" or if its not. If its not, then it becomes far more up in the air than the NYT's case. If it can be considered "The Press", then there is a much more reasonably sound constitutional argumement that they wouldn't fall under the legal issues.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
It's not deterrment/deterrent. It's DETERRENCE. What, exactly, are you hoping to deter? You want to create a country in which information about government wrongdoing is never leaked, and if it is, those who publish it are guilty of espionage/terrorism?

Have you really stopped to consider the ramifications of this action and what it would mean for this country in the long run?

Do you actually believe that the military/federal law enforcement agencies/governmental agencies never make mistakes? Should never be held publicly accountable?

HOW EXACTLY DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENS?
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Yeah, the US is evil and we need a savior like Assange to make our country better by embarrassing it, threatening it, giving out names of those in hostile countries helping us. That's going to work well.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
wait, so manning deserves a medal?
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Manning committed a military crime. However, PUBLISHING that material cannot be criminalized or you risk undermining our free and open society, and the crucial role of the press in holding governmental entities (including the military) accountable.

Consider this...the capabilities of the x-ray devices currently being used in airports could have been classified. After all, releasing this information freely compromises our ability to thwart terrorist attacks on our air travel infrastructure.

Would you have wanted that discussion to be off the table?

Think about what you're asking for here.
 
Redress said:
Yeah, the US is evil and we need a savior like Assange to make our country better by embarrassing it, threatening it, giving out names of those in hostile countries helping us. That's going to work well.
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Okay, then. Don't think.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
It's not deterrment/deterrent. It's DETERRENCE. What, exactly, are you hoping to deter? You want to create a country in which information about government wrongdoing is never leaked, and if it is, those who publish it are guilty of espionage/terrorism?
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You do realize that leaking of legitimately illegal wrongdoing is actually protected and allowable leaking? Its leaking things that are not about illegal or wrongful activity that is problematic.

You're damn right I'd like a country atmosphere where leaking confidential government information simply because you want to or you disagree with it is thought to be wrong and a major crime. I don't want a country that thinks leaking legitimate illegal activity to be be criminal...but thankfully we don't live in such a country.

Do you actually believe that the military/federal law enforcement agencies/governmental agencies never make mistakes? Should never be held publicly accountable?
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They do. Mistakes that are large enough to warrant civilian action and pressure generally are big enough that civilians know about it. Many smaller things can still be handled in regards to making people "accountable" without Joe Bob the Pig Farmer in Nebraska needing to know about it and weigh in.

Would it have been traitorous to have published stories on the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib?
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No, as there was illegal actions being undertaken there and as such I believe the Whistleblower Protection Act would protect the individual divluging the information. If the person leaking isn't doing it illegally then the person repeating that leak should not be doing anything illegal either.
 
Zyphlin said:
I think the issue is that the basis for the NYT's not being found guilty of espionage (because there was a court case) was due to their rights under the Freedom of the Press.

The issue that comes in here is whether or not something like "Wikileaks" legitimately can be considered "The Press" or if its not. If its not, then it becomes far more up in the air than the NYT's case. If it can be considered "The Press", then there is a much more reasonably sound constitutional argumement that they wouldn't fall under the legal issues.
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I think that there are many in our current government who would be perfectly happy to see NYT writers and editors tried for espionage. That's alarming.

The role of the fourth estate in...holding governmental entities accountable, airing their dirty laundry, keeping them answerable to the voters....it's really critical to maintaining all of our civil liberties.

And undermining that role is dangerous.

Do I like Assange? No.
Do I think he's bungled some things? Absolutely.
Is he a good person? No.

But none of those things matter, because if we don't support a free/open/transparent government, we start to undermine other basic rights that we consider very important. The principles are more important than the person of Assange.
 
Zyphlin, is this true? Link? Or what would I look under. This would seem to solve the whole problem Catz has properly identified.

You do realize that leaking of legitimately illegal wrongdoing is actually protected and allowable leaking? Its leaking things that are not about illegal or wrongful activity that is problematic.
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Zyphlin said:
You do realize that leaking of legitimately illegal wrongdoing is actually protected and allowable leaking? Its leaking things that are not about illegal or wrongful activity that is problematic.
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Leaking classified information is done nearly constantly in this country. The amount of reports that are now "classified" has expanded exponentially. There is an entire secret world out there of governmental activities of which most Americans are utterly unaware.

I consider that a dangerous state of affairs.

A hidden world, growing beyond control | washingtonpost.com

Who gets to decide if there is wrongdoing or not, unless there is an occasional public airing of this sort of information?

I never figured you for someone who trusts the governmental agencies implicitly, Zyph. So, who's minding the store?

From the article linked above:

The top-secret world the government created in response to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, has become so large, so unwieldy and so secretive that no one knows how much money it costs, how many people it employs, how many programs exist within it or exactly how many agencies do the same work.
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You don't see this as a problem?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Manning committed a military crime. However, PUBLISHING that material cannot be criminalized or you risk undermining our free and open society, and the crucial role of the press in holding governmental entities (including the military) accountable.

Consider this...the capabilities of the x-ray devices currently being used in airports could have been classified. After all, releasing this information freely compromises our ability to thwart terrorist attacks on our air travel infrastructure.

Would you have wanted that discussion to be off the table?

Think about what you're asking for here.
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You are really reaching here. First off, investigate journalism is entirely and completely unlike owning a blog, which is basically what Assange is, a blog owner. Second off, what Wikileaks has been doing is entirely unlike what you are talking about.
 
Redress said:
You are really reaching here. First off, investigate journalism is entirely and completely unlike owning a blog, which is basically what Assange is, a blog owner. Second off, what Wikileaks has been doing is entirely unlike what you are talking about.
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How is investigative journalism different than what Assange has done? How is what wikileaks is doing untirely unlike what the NY Times did in publishing the Pentagon Papers?

Please feel free to be explicit.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
How is investigative journalism different than what Assange has done? How is what wikileaks is doing untirely unlike what the NY Times did in publishing the Pentagon Papers?

Please feel free to be explicit.
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what did he "investigate"?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
How is investigative journalism different than what Assange has done? How is what wikileaks is doing untirely unlike what the NY Times did in publishing the Pentagon Papers?

Please feel free to be explicit.
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You mean outside of investigative journalists investigating things? The big hint is right there in the name....
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
he basically took stolen government property, and posted it on his blog. Geraldo he aint!
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Again, how is this different from what the New York Times did with the Pentagon Papers...and won a pulitzer for doing so. (And, probably, deserve credit for ending a war that should never have started).
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I think that there are many in our current government who would be perfectly happy to see NYT writers and editors tried for espionage. That's alarming.
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That might be the case. Unfortunantely, there's no question the NYT is "the press" and the SCOTUS has deemed them protected from doing such things as Assange did.

There's a lot of things that people in our government likely think that scare me. Ultimately I realize that I can't let fear of things that are unlikely to have much real affect on anything guide my every move.

The role of the fourth estate in...holding governmental entities accountable, airing their dirty laundry, keeping them answerable to the voters....it's really critical to maintaining all of our civil liberties.
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Sadly I think the press has been worse and worse at all those things in the past decades. But I agree, we do need that type of thing in theory.

Do I like Assange? No.
Do I think he's bungled some things? Absolutely.
Is he a good person? No.
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Agree

But none of those things matter, because if we don't support a free/open/transparent government, we start to undermine other basic rights that we consider very important. The principles are more important than the person of Assange.
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None of those things matter in regards to legality, but other things might. For example, whether or not "Wikileaks" could be considered "The Press" does matter.

Let me put it to you this way.

If some random guy got sold a ton of classified information, went off on a street corner, and started shouting it out...is he "the press"? Is repeating classified information like that by a random guy "free speech"? Because if Wikileaks isn't considered the press, and is more like a Geocities web page about teddy bears rather than like the NYT, then he's in a similar position as the guy shouting on the corner.
 
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