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Thread: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

  1. #121
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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    A federal government that can completely stifle public discourse by deeming certain topics "classified" is neither weak nor small. If you really wanted a small/weak federalist government, you'd see the dangers here.
    I see the dangers, but they are remote. I don't care about remote dangers that may or may not come to pass when I can clearly see the mortal danger that shares my nationality. If there isn't a small federal govt. then there shouldn't be a federal govt.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    This wouldn't happen to China. The Chinese are refreshingly ruthless. People don't screw with the Chinese.
    Assange has released numerous documents highlighting the Chinese government's human rights abuses. What was their response?

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I see the dangers, but they are remote.
    The danger of your government "protecting" you from terrorism by withholding crucial information is not remote. It is ongoing. A scared populace is a biddable and compliant populace. Say the word terrorism, and the American federal agencies now believe they can abuse any civil liberties and withold any information from the voters they are answerable to.

    One might well ask why our media outlets aren't reporting these stories like they used to, back in the 1970s.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-07-10 at 03:30 PM.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    This wouldn't happen to China. The Chinese are refreshingly ruthless. People don't screw with the Chinese.
    Well, we should absolutely look to them as a role model.

    /sarcasm

  5. #125
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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Assange has released numerous documents highlighting the Chinese government's human rights abuses. What was their response?
    The Party isn't harmed by American allegations of human rights violations in China. The Chinese don't care. Assange hasn't done anything to offend the Chinese.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    So you see zero value to the work that Assange has done in releasing information about more repressive regimes like Kenya and China? The world doesn't have a right to see that information? Our embarrassment trumps all?
    My issues lies strictly with a deliberate effort to undermine U.S. interests via disclosing strategic sites. That important U.S. interests were attacked is far more than a matter of "embarrassment." No sovereign state can or should allow others to undermine its critical interests with impunity. Neither should the U.S.

    Perhaps I'm tired of our deterrence regime (aka being the bullies of the world). That's not our role in the world, or at least, it shouldn't be. I'm fairly certain our founding fathers didn't envision our current "deterrence regime."
    Deterrence is aimed at preventing something. It is not about bullying. If a country can reduce the risk of war e.g., through sustaining a balance of power that makes the possible rewards of aggression unattractive relative to the likely costs of aggression, then it is a worthy pursuit. If, in this case, the U.S. can take sufficiently decisive steps that discourage others from similarly disclosing sensitive sites without regard to whom the information might reach, then national security will be enhanced.

    That Mr. Assange would dearly like to avoid being held accountable--indeed, he fears it given some of his recently expressed fears--does not mean that the nation should avoid doing so. The only relevant issues are that the nation's critical interests were undermined by the disclosure of the sites the nation considers "vita," and that every national government has a fundamental obligation to safeguard its critical interests. That such an obligation is inconvenient to Mr. Assange, e.g., he risks losing his freedom for a period of time, possibly a lengthy one, if he is convicted, is irrelevant. He took calculated risks masquerading as an advocate of media freedom in increasingly targeting critical U.S. interests, and the U.S. (or any other sovereign state whose critical interests might have been undermined) is not obligated to back off simply because he tried to create a convenient alibi to try to avoid accountability.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The danger of your government "protecting" you from terrorism by withholding crucial information is not remote. It is ongoing. A scared populace is a biddable and compliant populace. Say the word terrorism, and the American federal agencies now believe they can abuse any civil liberties and withold any information from the voters they are answerable to.
    The govt. isn't protecting anyone from terrorism. Terrorism isn't a problem. Once the federal monster is cut down to size there won't be a problem.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Well, we should absolutely look to them as a role model.

    /sarcasm
    China is rising. America is declining. Even if America wanted it couldn't adopt the Chinese model.

    America is following the Soviet model, except the collapse appears to be in slow motion. When the investment markets turn on America the collapse will be completed overnight.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    My issues lies strictly with a deliberate effort to undermine U.S. interests via disclosing strategic sites. That important U.S. interests were attacked is far more than a matter of "embarrassment." No sovereign state can or should allow others to undermine its critical interests with impunity. Neither should the U.S.
    I note your use of the word ATTACKED. What sites were actually attacked? Or, are you simply peevish that we've been caught with our knickers around our ankles?

    Let's use accurate words, shall we? Nothing has been attacked. Some not-very-sensitive but somewhat annoying and embarrassing information has been made public. We'll somehow manage to soldier on. This, situation, however, is not an attack. Calling it an attack is both unecessary hyperbole and inaccurate use of the English language.

    Deterrence is aimed at preventing something. It is not about bullying. If a country can reduce the risk of war e.g., through sustaining a balance of power that makes the possible rewards of aggression unattractive relative to the likely costs of aggression, then it is a worthy pursuit. If, in this case, the U.S. can take sufficiently decisive steps that discourage others from similarly disclosing sensitive sites without regard to whom the information might reach, then national security will be enhanced.
    The U.S. has zero international right to police the release of information that we failed to secure. The only decisive steps that we should be taking are in cleaning up our classified systems and who has access to specific data sets.

    That Mr. Assange would dearly like to avoid being held accountable--indeed, he fears it given some of his recently expressed fears--does not mean that the nation should avoid doing so.
    What laws has Julian Assange broken, Don, for which we should hold him accountable? We can argue that it was unethical and not very nice for him to release our classified files, but it does not appear to be illegal.

    Thus, accountability lies with us, for leaving our asses flapping in the breeze.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 12-07-10 at 03:37 PM.

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    Re: List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    China is rising. America is declining. Even if America wanted it couldn't adopt the Chinese model.
    Thank God for that. Would you seriously wish to adopt a system where you could be incarcerated for expressing concerns about the safety of the milk industry?

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