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Thread: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Here is some more math for the subject. We are told that 47% do not pay ANY Federal INCOME tax. That leaves 53%. So 33% is probably a majority of those folks who actually support the government through income tax payments.
    Here's some problems with that logic.
    1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...leonhardt.html

    2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
    3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
    4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
    5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

    6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Here's some problems with that logic.
    1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...leonhardt.html

    2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
    3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
    4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
    5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

    6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.
    why should there be a poll that discusses only the rich getting a tax hike then

    that seems like a device to divide people

    and asking people who don't pay income taxes or don't have any danger of being in the top bracket about what those in the top bracket should pay is rather silly and demonstrates the true evil in progressive tax schemes



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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    IMO, the majority in Congress make more than 250K. While entirely legal, bet everone took advantage of the lower tax rate. Nothing stopped them from paying what they feel is a "fair share" to the US Treasury. Seem a bit odd to say the "rich" should pay more, yet those in Congress could not bring themselves to make the payment since the Bush tax cuts went into place. Its all political bs to say lets tax the rich, yet they don't lead by example.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why should there be a poll that discusses only the rich getting a tax hike then

    that seems like a device to divide people

    and asking people who don't pay income taxes or don't have any danger of being in the top bracket about what those in the top bracket should pay is rather silly and demonstrates the true evil in progressive tax schemes
    Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

    But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

    But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people
    gee duh-but its the income tax rates that are the subject of this thread.



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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Did you read the explaination, Federal income taxes doesn't mean all income taxes and it doesn't mean all taxes. Also the system works so its one citizen, one vote so polling everyone makes sense to me personally.

    But point being, the majority of people don't support a full extension, doing so is not the will of the people
    1. No, the income tax is not all tax paid. It is the topic of discussion for this thread though, not the myriad of other shell games our Federal Government uses to fleece us.

    2. No, by CNN's poll, (CNN Polls tend to skew left BTW) a majority do not support the extension. But Rasmussen (which has recently been accused of skewing to the right) has polls that say they do. Polls may not lie, but liars sure can poll.

    The will of the people? How many of the people even know what they want, or even care? That is truly hard to determine, but IMHO the results at the polling booth seem to be a better indicator than widely varying opinion polls. I do not think a majority have shifted that radically in the last few weeks. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
    1. No, the income tax is not all tax paid. It is the topic of discussion for this thread though, not the myriad of other shell games our Federal Government uses to fleece us.

    2. No, by CNN's poll, (CNN Polls tend to skew left BTW) a majority do not support the extension. But Rasmussen (which has recently been accused of skewing to the right) has polls that say they do. Polls may not lie, but liars sure can poll.

    The will of the people? How many of the people even know what they want, or even care? That is truly hard to determine, but IMHO the results at the polling booth seem to be a better indicator than widely varying opinion polls. I do not think a majority have shifted that radically in the last few weeks. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
    So do you have a source for that poll? Also people vote for politicians for many different reasons and if a voter selects an individual, it does not mean they both agree on everything. So if a politician who supports full extension is elected, doesn't exactly mean all his voters support that idea too. It may be a good indication but by no means a certainty.

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Here's some problems with that logic.
    1) That 47% is from a careful and selective reading of the real numbers, and the implication that 47% of people pay no taxes is completly false since there are all kinds of different taxes.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...leonhardt.html

    2) The poll in no way says that it only polled those who paid federal income tax.
    3) Even if you don't pay those taxes, you're vote still counts the same as someone who does so there's no reason for a poll place to divide people like that since it only leaves them with less accurate information.
    4) 33% of 53% of the people is still a minority, in fact its a smaller minority than if you took 33% of all Americans.
    5) The Federal government makes money in many many more ways than Federal income taxes, so one can still not pay those taxes but still support the government.

    6) 33% is not a majority and certainly can't be called the will of the people.
    First, please note that I put emphasis on the wording INCOME TAX, maybe now you will pick this up.

    Maybe someone else would like to respond to your thought that 33% is less than half 53%??!!

    Lastly, sure everyone gets to vote. But to ask people who pay zero to fund the federal government should others pay more is nuts on it's face. If those 47% were more productive we would not be in the debt problem we are. These people may not be lazy ( a blanket statement either way is silly) but they sure do not create much wealth.

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    First, please note that I put emphasis on the wording INCOME TAX, maybe now you will pick this up.

    Maybe someone else would like to respond to your thought that 33% is less than half 53%??!!

    Lastly, sure everyone gets to vote. But to ask people who pay zero to fund the federal government should others pay more is nuts on it's face. If those 47% were more productive we would not be in the debt problem we are. These people may not be lazy ( a blanket statement either way is silly) but they sure do not create much wealth.
    I feel like I should be re-posting the exact same post again...
    The 47% is a bull**** number. And the fact that you believe that funding the federal government is the same as paying a federal income tax really shows an ignorance of the issue.

    Anyway the whole original point of my posts here was that the full tax cut extensions aren't supported by the majority of voters, which is the case, especially since you haven't sourced your statement that the numbers are actually in favor.

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    Re: Senate blocks Obama's tax plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    So do you have a source for that poll? Also people vote for politicians for many different reasons and if a voter selects an individual, it does not mean they both agree on everything. So if a politician who supports full extension is elected, doesn't exactly mean all his voters support that idea too. It may be a good indication but by no means a certainty.
    It was quoted on my local CBS affiliate this evening, I am still looking for it.

    My point is that any single poll, from any polling agency, cannot be held up as an absolute indicator of what the people want. Polls vary for lots of reasons, & can be slanted by the wording of the question, the order the questions are asked in & the methodology used in selecting the population sample.

    Your same same arguments can be made for why a person responds to a particular poll question on a particular day.

    The bigger question is why should we be punishing the producers in our society? They already pick up the lions share of the income tax.

    Even the father of the modern Democratic Party, JFK understood that increasing the tax rate does not increase revenue when it slows the economy. The way to increase revenues is to stop hobbling the economy & let it grow..

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