McCain: 'Don't Ask' Repeal May Cause Troop Exodus

Deuce said:

Say, NP, the Navy overall had the highest favorability towards repeal of DADT, followed closely by the Coast Guard. Does this change your opinion at all, seeing as how you're a boat jockey yourself? You have often remarked that if the military was for it, you'd be ok with it. I ask because it appears as though you're backing off on that.

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Navy Pride is a liar. Someone might be tempted to give me an infraction for saying so, but it's an objective fact. He was demanding that others commit to backing down from the issue if it turned out that the military was against repeal because he claimed that he was going to back down from opposing repeal if it turned out the military supported it. He has been completely dishonest. NP's word is worth absolutely nothing.

Deuce said:

Irrelevant partisan nonsense.

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Relevant, for if the truth is what you seek, the Libs aren't well versed in it.

This study shows that the vast majority of units surveyed suffered no ill effects. Even combat units.

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Yeah, and how many of these "studies" have proven wrong over time? Our government is awash in such prognostications.

Other long-term societal norms:
Women being property
Black people being property
Human sacrifice
Using leeches in medical procedures

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Nice try. Homosexuality will never be a "norm", and at the moment Gays can serve.

"We've always done it that way" is not sufficient grounds to deny people rights.

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What rights are being denied. They can serve, up to the point they are flagrant about it. Even then they can serve. The wiki-leaker was an openly gay member of the US Military. Look where that got us.

See, the scary part is that you think this is some absurd idea. What? Trannies get equal rights? NOT IN MY AMERICA!!!

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I simply don't think the military should be some kind of social experiment. At this moment and for 17-years gays could and have served.

What video?

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I posted one earlier. You know, the story the journOlists fail to tell.

So your new argument is "congress can't get the votes therefore we shouldn't do it?" Oh, well, I guess you support Obamacare now because there's not enough votes to repeal it!!

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It wasn't an argument, it was a simple statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less, and also something little reported by the journOlists.


As you were.

zimmer said:

Relevant, for if the truth is what you seek, the Libs aren't well versed in it.

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Conservatives are just as good at telling the truth as libs are.

Eighty Deuce said:

The newer, more direct surveys, showe that over 60% of those in th line units dd not think it was a good idea. There will be enormous peer pressure in those units against gays who are too open about it. Their fellow soldiers will determine what is "too open". Trust me.

I am for the repeal of DADT btw. Have said so in other threads. But it will have its own special dynamics when implemented.

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i think youll find that gays will migrate toward certain occupations naturally, clerical/technical/etc. but generally not signing up to be 11B's out of the gate. similarly, not many gay kids on the football team, but the tennis team is usually suspect.
so it may be that the fears of some people having to compete with a gay person in sexuality, will be lessened the more they "man up".. lol

WhyteRash said:

i think youll find that gays will migrate toward certain occupations naturally, clerical/technical/etc. but generally not signing up to be 11B's out of the gate. similarly, not many gay kids on the football team, but the tennis team is usually suspect.
so it may be that the fears of some people having to compete with a gay person in sexuality, will be lessened the more they "man up".. lol

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I think you'll find that your preconceived stereotypes aren't as accurate as you think.

WhyteRash said:

...not many gay kids on the football team...l

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You would be really surprised.

In both my high school and college, I knew the closeted gays on the football team.

I see the usual mob of gays on this board are predictably gang responding to Navy Pride's thread with their usual knee jerk political correctness strategy of sounding appalled and dismayed. I guess they think that is going to make it seem like their opinions are in the majority. Well sorry to bring back to reality you in that mob. Link to the Military Times poll that asked real questions the Obama appointed military team should have asked and instead limited their poll to suit their ends. Just as John McCain is now making light of. Military members, the most important opinions in that change see changes to dadt much differently than those pushing the change in Obama's camp. And of course all members of his appointed inner circle were filtered by high-level members of LGBT and are serving him under various political pressures.

Military News, benefits, careers, photos, discussions - Military Times HOME

Snippet from the below link:

"The poll, sponsored by the Center for Military Readiness and the Military Culture Coalition, found the largest group of respondents – 48 percent – opposes repealing the 1993 law. Forty-five percent favored repealing Don't Ask."

"Former Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Carl Mundy, representing the Flag and General Officers of the Military, which has opposed repeal of Don't Ask, said he took heart from a poll finding that showed most voters view the military as a specialized segment of society. Repealing Don't Ask would have an adverse impact on military discipline, unit cohesion and military recruiting and retention, Mundy added."

New Poll Finds Most Oppose DADT Repeal

Snippet from the below link:

"Wicker also raised questions about troops’ sentiments by noting that the Pentagon study group anecdotally suggested that “the majority of views expressed” in online comments, focus groups and open forums with service members “were against the repeal of the current ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy

DADT Survey: 63% of Military Families Want to Keep "Don't Ask, Don't Tell' | ThirdAge

70s_guy said:

Military News, benefits, careers, photos, discussions - Military Times HOME

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I notice that half the respondants claimed to identify a gay person by "speech, behavior or appearance". So these people acted on their notions of steryotypes, rather than actual information. Plus another 11% based it on hearsay. That surely produces accurate information. Only 14% based their impression on being told by the person in question, which is the only reliable source of such information.

New Poll Finds Most Oppose DADT Repeal

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This refers to the same poll.

DADT Survey: 63% of Military Families Want to Keep "Don't Ask, Don't Tell' | ThirdAge

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The poll discussed in this counts replies from less than 50,000 people, as opposed to more than twice that in the poll which the top military leaders are using.

I certainly can't speak to any bias in these polls, either. It's very easy to choose who to poll, and who not to. These two polls do not provide enough information about their samples to be reliable.

But all that aside, here's the real point. The fear of an unknown variable causing unspecified problems is not enough cause to discriminate. There is no actual proof that repealing DADT will harm morale, or the ability of a unit to fight. There's only a suspicion that it might. You can suspect all you want, but you need proof. Being afraid that something could happen doesn't mean that anything will.

70s_guy said:

I see the usual mob of gays on this board are predictably gang responding to Navy Pride's thread with their usual knee jerk political correctness strategy of sounding appalled and dismayed.

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Yes, clearly only a gay person could possibly find DADT to be discriminatory. :roll:

Even with DADT repealed I'm sure the military will have the lowest percentage of gay members compared to most civilian jobs. So why would 12% leave to go work a job that more than likely has gay employees?

The entire American military should be structured based on the model established by the Sacred Band of Thebes.

McCain has completely lost my respect for good now.

Some great stuff in this thread guys.

Navy, funny how you always like to throw around Polls when it suits your cause.

But funny how, when it shows that the vast majority of the military, and the vast majority of the American people support repeal of DADT, that you still resist.

Why do you oppose the will of the American people Navy? Isn't that what you accuse Obama of doing?

Jetboogieman said:

But funny how, when it shows that the vast majority of the military, and the vast majority of the American people support repeal of DADT, that you still resist.

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Could it be that Navy Pride is John McCain IRL?!? :shock:

Glinda said:

Could it be that Navy Pride is John McCain IRL?!? :shock:

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Weirder things have happened.

But then again, McCain never reffered to Obama as Hussein so... :2razz:

But they both sure do say Friend alot...

Glinda said:

Could it be that Navy Pride is John McCain IRL?!? :shock:

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No, Navy once claimed that he could beat John McCain in an election. I used the quote in my sig during the 2008 election. :mrgreen:

CriticalThought said:

You would be really surprised.

In both my high school and college, I knew the closeted gays on the football team.

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so youre saying it was a relatively even distribution between gays and straights on the football team?(as opposed to my implication of "not so many"..)
how about the non-contact sports?(such as tennis)

Deuce said:

I think you'll find that your preconceived stereotypes aren't as accurate as you think.

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really? i believe im spot on..
youre not being honest if you think its a 1:1 ratio between gays and straight people, most particularly where aggressiveness is prominent and in the general population where there are fewer gay people than straight period. the number naturally arent there.. it doesnt take a preconception of any sort to accept the way it already is.

btw, dont confuse me with someone who feels that gays need a scarlett letter, as i could care less who was "walking the line" with me or anyone i know.
DADT should be repealed and sexuality shouldnt be an issue in any branch, but dont fool yourself into thinking that suddenly have of the 82nd, the 101st, seals, rangers, etc. will come out of the closet or suddenly get filled with gay people. it aint gonna happen..

WhyteRash said:

so youre saying it was a relatively even distribution between gays and straights on the football team?(as opposed to my implication of "not so many"..)
how about the non-contact sports?(such as tennis)

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What he is saying is that gays probably play football as much as straits do, which means that any football players are, like the rest of the population, somewhere between 2 and 10 % gay. Believe it or not, the limp wristed gay hairdresser stereotype is not all that common in the gay community. They are there, but they are far from the majority of gays.

WhyteRash said:

so youre saying it was a relatively even distribution between gays and straights on the football team?(as opposed to my implication of "not so many"..)
how about the non-contact sports?(such as tennis)

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Redress hit the nail on the head. You obviously have not had much exposure to gay people. I have a black belt in Taekwondo which is pretty far removed from Tennis.

The only sport that I think is strictly hetero is probably wrestling, and that is because it is already too damn gay of a sport to need any gays.

Glinda said:

Could it be that Navy Pride is John McCain IRL?!? :shock:

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John McCain admitted that he couldn't even figure out how to turn on a computer. His fingers are also damaged from his time as a POW so he isn't capable of typing.

Vincent said:

The perfect solution: gay military units. It solves every problem both ways! Seriously, think about it. The two issues about repealing don't ask don't tell are (1) will normal men and women be fine with the forced intimacy of the military with homosexuals, and (2) making sure everyone's dealing with openly gay troops without giving gays harrassement. Gay military units means that normal troops won't have any problems, because they won't have to deal with it, and gays won't have any problems because they'll be in their own units.

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Thank you for your suggestion. We should also bring back black military units. Think of all the money we'll save if we segregate our military. We don't have to stop at blacks and gays. We should also segregate Jewish soldiers. While we're at it, if you like blue and somebody likes red, there is no reason for both of them to be in the same unit. Their disagreements might be bad for unit cohesion,

CriticalThought said:

Redress hit the nail on the head. You obviously have not had much exposure to gay people. I have a black belt in Taekwondo which is pretty far removed from Tennis.

The only sport that I think is strictly hetero is probably wrestling, and that is because it is already too damn gay of a sport to need any gays.

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We don't make fun of wrestling. How many times do I have to tell you guys that.

Besides, what is gay about a sport involving 2 sweaty guys grabbing...

OK, never mind that question.

Redress said:

We don't make fun of wrestling. How many times do I have to tell you guys that.

Besides, what is gay about a sport involving 2 sweaty guys grabbing...

OK, never mind that question.

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They take wrestling very seriously in Turkey.... Where's the olive oil?

CriticalThought said:

John McCain admitted that he couldn't even figure out how to turn on a computer. His fingers are also damaged from his time as a POW so he isn't capable of typing.

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Which makes his sponsorship of the Internet Censorship Freedom Act all the more infuriating.
Old man yells at cloud, indeed.