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Thread: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    KEY:
    McCain is in red
    Pentagon Study is in green
    Michael Mullen is in blue



    In 2006 McCain said the following about Don't Ask Don't Tell:



    On Tuesday the Pentagon released a study indicating that most soldiers felt ending the policy would do no serious harm to the military. I will post a link to the study here. I suggest you go and read the study, it was quite interesting.



    Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen and Bush appointed Secretary of Defense Robert Gates came out and supported a repeal of the bill, saying it's the








    This is absurd. Polls are accurate with a sample of 0.1% of the population, let alone 28% of currently serving military-persons.






    36% of military members are currently serving with homosexual or bisexual soldiers.


    92.5% of military members won't have their personal readiness downgraded if DADT is repealed.




    Opinions? I thought I'd scour the web for a big picture, hope it helps. Just used print screen to get the snapshots. Before you make a decision it's a good idea to read the report, it was interesting, especially Part VII: Survey Results.

    Thanks!
    On the issue itself, I will go with the leaders. If they say it is OK, they should know. Also other nations which have effective fighting forces already let everyone serve.

    That being said, when looking at surveys I like to look at the two extremes to see where people voted. So in most cases there is a slight bias against doing this by the people who voted.

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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    It's important to remember that the situation not being affected, or becoming better is a better situation than the status quo, thus the "positively/very positively" "No Effect" and "Equally Positive as Negative" are all saying that repealing the bill will keep the situation the same or make it better.

    Banning ethnic kids from public schools would probably increase "school cohesion", because they typically come from lower income families on average (this is just a fact, as shown below). This does not however, make it justified to ban ethnic kids from public schools. I don't see how the argument from military cohesion makes it any less morally abhorrent.

    Last edited by SirPwn4lot; 12-04-10 at 10:58 AM.

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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    It's important to remember that the situation not being affected, or becoming better is a better situation than the status quo, thus the "positively/very positively" "No Effect" and "Equally Positive as Negative" are all saying that repealing the bill will keep the situation the same or make it better.

    Banning ethnic kids from public schools would probably increase "school cohesion", because they typically come from lower income families on average (this is just a fact, as shown below). This does not however, make it justified to ban ethnic kids from public schools. I don't see how the argument from military cohesion makes it any less morally abhorrent.

    As I said, I am fine with the change since the military commanders agreed with it.

    That being said, I do not agree with your analysis that says a vote for no effect is a vote in favor. I say this for ALL surveys, not just this one. Saying that the middle bar sides with the pro or con side is in the eyes of the person who wants to slant a result. I see this in many political surveys. This allows both sides to claim the middle and both decry they won!

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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    Quoting all my charts might make the page a little clogged :/

    Well my standard is that all citizens should be allowed in the military unless you can show some serious danger. For example, one may construct an argument that ex-felons shouldn't be allowed in the military because they constitute a serious risk.

    Thus the default being that they're allowed in, I would need some actual detriment shown, not just "no effect".

    Others many feel differently, but that's my opinion.

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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPwn4lot View Post
    Quoting all my charts might make the page a little clogged :/

    Well my standard is that all citizens should be allowed in the military unless you can show some serious danger. For example, one may construct an argument that ex-felons shouldn't be allowed in the military because they constitute a serious risk.

    Thus the default being that they're allowed in, I would need some actual detriment shown, not just "no effect".

    Others many feel differently, but that's my opinion.
    That's fine, as stated I agree with the change.

    You may have also tacitly made my other point in interpreting the survey.

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    Re: McCain vs The Pentagon

    Quote Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
    McCain didn't even address the survey findings with this retort... he's just taking swipes at individuals here. Is this truly all he has left?
    That is generally the only thing left for people that oppose this. The opposition wanted pentagon support and got it; they wanted the release of the study and got it. Now all they have left is name calling and ridiculous assertions (such as a poll sampling 28% of a group was not representative). This has degenerated to a bad argument on the 3rd grade playground. Time to pass this and move on to important things.

    McCain was even a proponent of the repeal. Then when he became an opponent, it was conditional opposition pending pentagon endorsement, then the study. Now he is just hopelessly in the camp of the bigots. Someone needs to crucify McCain for his intellectual dishonesty on this subject (in fact, all intellectual dishonest politicians need to be held accountable for intellectual dishonesty.)
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-04-10 at 12:13 PM.

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    Re: McCain vs The Pentagon

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    That is generally the only thing left for people that oppose this. The opposition wanted pentagon support and got it; they wanted the release of the study and got it. Now all they have left is name calling and ridiculous assertions (such as a poll sampling 28% of a group was not representative). This has degenerated to a bad argument on the 3rd grade playground. Time to pass this and move on to important things.

    McCain was even a proponent of the repeal. Then when he became an opponent, it was conditional opposition pending pentagon endorsement, then the study. Now he is just hopelessly in the camp of the bigots. Someone needs to crucify McCain for his intellectual dishonesty on this subject (in fact, all intellectual dishonest politicians need to be held accountable for intellectual dishonesty.)
    That is, all politicians full stop need to be held accountable for their blatant intellectual dishonesty

    Anyway, the media apart of the rich elite, why would they want to challenge that power structure? It maintains them. People are challenging the plutocracy, but their voices are only heard locally.

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    Re: McCain vs The Pentagon

    Thank Vishnu that McCain lost the election in 2008. His latest soundbite is that the economy is too bad to repeal DADT. It's almost as embarrassing as Brett Favre sticking around too long.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Mullen fires back at McCain’s ‘don’t ask’ repeal criticism

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    As I said, I am fine with the change since the military commanders agreed with it.

    That being said, I do not agree with your analysis that says a vote for no effect is a vote in favor. I say this for ALL surveys, not just this one. Saying that the middle bar sides with the pro or con side is in the eyes of the person who wants to slant a result. I see this in many political surveys. This allows both sides to claim the middle and both decry they won!
    When it comes to personal freedom, "no effect" is a vote in favor. To think otherwise is about as anti-American as it gets.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: McCain vs The Pentagon

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Thank Vishnu that McCain lost the election in 2008. His latest soundbite is that the economy is too bad to repeal DADT. It's almost as embarrassing as Brett Favre sticking around too long.
    I don't see how he's all that much worse than the Democrats. The Republicans are simply more open about their agenda. If you'll notice the Democrats haven't actually done anything productive, they just complain for a few months and then eventually give in, claiming their hands are tied.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    When it comes to personal freedom, "no effect" is a vote in favor. To think otherwise is about as anti-American as it gets.
    I disagree with the concept of "un-americanism" at it's core. Terms like this were/are largely used in totalitarian governments to shoot down those who challenge the status quo. Anti-Sovietism is a similar instance.

    That said, I do agree with what you said, bar the anti-american comment.

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