House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

JohnWOlin said:

Of course you have more means to protect your stuff. But what happens when God forbid, a full scale assault happens on us, do you got tanks to protect your homes and your money in the banks? If a war wiped out a bunch of people you rely on to make profit then that doesn't that harm you? Thankfully, you have this massive army to prevent that. So are you saying you don't support the military and don't want to continue to contribute your fair share to make sure you keep getting your fair share?



Very true, and not good either.

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More crap as usual. What is my fair share? are you claiming the top 1% use 40% of the services paid for by income taxes and ALL the services paid for by the death confiscation tax

I have no problem with a flat tax meaning I still pay far far more than you will

I have a problem with people like you-who don't pay your fair share demanding that those of us who pay more than we use having to pay even more

Conservative said:

Typical rant on your part that ignores the content of the posts being made. The tax cuts that Bush inacted continue to benefit even you today. They did not overcome the financial crisis that hit the country in 2008 nor could they but they still help you and your family on each paycheck. How is that a bad thing?

If you want to pay more to the govt. do it but stop whining about what someone else pays as it doesn't affect you, your family, or even the nation. Spending is the problem, not tax cuts and that is where you seem to lack basic understanding.

I have never called you a "leftwing nutjob" but I do call people who promote class envy people with an agenda that really don't care about anything but promoting govt. power. You are good at throwing titles and names around without offering much in the way of substance. Don't you find it somewhat puzzling that I don't really care how much money you make? Why do you care what someone else makes?

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typical rant? uh, no....take a look at your posts on the subject of taxes and the rich...your own posts prove my point. so conservative, say i want to discuss tax rates, and i believe that those who make more should pay more, in your world, i am suddenly a supporter of class warfare, since i want to discuss tax policy, you will start screaming how '47%' don't pay taxes, add to that 'why do you care how much someone makes?' and even on top of that 'your jealous'....then you start into your whole liberal bashing act. wash, rinse, repeat

TurtleDude said:

part of the liberal elite assumptions is that they are in the best position to determine what is best for others and what is fair. That's why you hear them claiming "the rich" don't pay "their fair share" (it is true-the "rich" pay far more than their fair share-fair being most objectively defined as paying for what you use)

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You are exactly right and when the truth that the majority of taxes are payed by a minority of those who are in the top income brackets, while those in the lower brackets pay little or nothing the Liberals will desperately try to change the subject or just attack the messenger.

The Democrats love to create a them and us situation and play the poor me card but it's always a load of Bovine Scatology based on lies and or misinformation.

I have often wondered why Democrats were so into the party that they blindly follow as if who ever was at the top was the true Messiah, then it dawned on me they have no choice.

When you spend your life repeating what you hear and believing what you are told, the ability to think for yourself dies.

TurtleDude said:

More crap as usual. What is my fair share? are you claiming the top 1% use 40% of the services paid for by income taxes and ALL the services paid for by the death confiscation tax

I have no problem with a flat tax meaning I still pay far far more than you will

I have a problem with people like you-who don't pay your fair share demanding that those of us who pay more than we use having to pay even more

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So you can't directly answer my points? When you couple all tax breaks that are possible, we essentially are closer to flat tax than you think in the first place. Eventually you will pay 3-5% more, and I would have no problem with the tax rates rolling back for all tax brackets within the next 10 years, just right now people that need it, need all they can get currently.

randel said:

typical rant? uh, no....take a look at your posts on the subject of taxes and the rich...your own posts prove my point. so conservative, say i want to discuss tax rates, and i believe that those who make more should pay more, in your world, i am suddenly a supporter of class warfare, since i want to discuss tax policy, you will start screaming how '47%' don't pay taxes, add to that 'why do you care how much someone makes?' and even on top of that 'your jealous'....then you start into your whole liberal bashing act. wash, rinse, repeat

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Those that make more DO pay more and it remains you and others who are concerned about what others make and pay in taxes. Why is that? My response on fairness is in response to the posts made here and I ask you if fairness is the issue as you want to claim that the rich don't pay their fair share, do you believe 47% of the people not paying ANY Federal income taxes is fair? So don't give me "this isn't fair" argument because you don't care about fairness for if you did you would focus on those who don't pay any Federal Income taxes.

Councilman said:

You are exactly right and when the truth that the majority of taxes are payed by a minority of those who are in the top income brackets, while those in the lower brackets pay little or nothing the Liberals will desperately try to change the subject or just attack the messenger.

The Democrats love to create a them and us situation and play the poor me card but it's always a load of Bovine Scatology based on lies and or misinformation.

I have often wondered why Democrats were so into the party that they blindly follow as if who ever was at the top was the true Messiah, then it dawned on me they have no choice.

When you spend your life repeating what you hear and believing what you are told, the ability to think for yourself dies.

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Look at my previous points. You can argue against them until you are blue in the face but the truth is, the rich have much more at stake and therfore use the government and services provided from the government far more than one single poor person will in their entire life.

JohnWOlin said:

So you can't directly answer my points? When you couple all tax breaks that are possible, we essentially are closer to flat tax than you think in the first place. Eventually you will pay 3-5% more, and I would have no problem with the tax rates rolling back for all tax brackets within the next 10 years, just right now people that need it, need all they can get currently.

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I addressed your post almost line by line and you ignored it. Could it be that you are having trouble admitting that you don't understand the various taxes we pay and what they go for? This thread is about Middle Class tax cuts and relates to INCOME TAXES. Are you telling me that 47% of the people making income but not paying any INCOME Taxes is fair in your world?

JohnWOlin said:

So you can't directly answer my points? When you couple all tax breaks that are possible, we essentially are closer to flat tax than you think in the first place. Eventually you will pay 3-5% more, and I would have no problem with the tax rates rolling back for all tax brackets within the next 10 years, just right now people that need it, need all they can get currently.

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more lies

the rich pay a higher average income tax rate than any other group

almost half the country pay less than 5%.

YOU HAVE NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTION-what is the FAIR SHARE FOR THE TOP ONE PERCENT TO PAY--right now they pay more of the tax burden (FIT and Death tax) than at any time in history-40%

JohnWOlin said:

Look at my previous points. You can argue against them until you are blue in the face but the truth is, the rich have much more at stake and therfore use the government and services provided from the government far more than one single poor person will in their entire life.

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Please site your source for that claim? How do the rich use more of public services than the poor? Please learn the difference between Income taxes and use taxes.

Conservative said:

Those that make more DO pay more and it remains you and others who are concerned about what others make and pay in taxes. Why is that? My response on fairness is in response to the posts made here and I ask you if fairness is the issue as you want to claim that the rich don't pay their fair share, do you believe 47% of the people not paying ANY Federal income taxes is fair? So don't give me "this isn't fair" argument because you don't care about fairness for if you did you would focus on those who don't pay any Federal Income taxes.

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if you had your way, the rich would pay no taxes, you seem to labor under the assumption that if they pay little to no taxes, that they will 'magically' reinvest that money in ventures to create jobs.....again, they got a tax cut, where are the jobs? as for your 47%, are they economically able to afford a hike in taxes? seems your goal is to create a permanent upper class, a group that is able to pass on wealth from generation to generation, and to keep the working masses in their places.

randel said:

if you had your way, the rich would pay no taxes, you seem to labor under the assumption that if they pay little to no taxes, that they will 'magically' reinvest that money in ventures to create jobs.....again, they got a tax cut, where are the jobs? as for your 47%, are they economically able to afford a hike in taxes? seems your goal is to create a permanent upper class, a group that is able to pass on wealth from generation to generation, and to keep the working masses in their places.

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why do you make such dishonest comments.. He has never advocated that the rich pay no taxes.

JohnWOlin said:

Look at my previous points. You can argue against them until you are blue in the face but the truth is, the rich have much more at stake and therfore use the government and services provided from the government far more than one single poor person will in their entire life.

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more BS-I want to see proof that the rich cost the government more or that we would decrease our defense spending if everyone only had 100K in average assets

Conservative said:

Please site your source for that claim? How do the rich use more of public services than the poor? Please learn the difference between Income taxes and use taxes.

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The rich have more at stake obviously, they need an army to protect their assets, that not even a Brinks security could protect of course.

The rich while I can't think of any particular survey definately do far more traveling business and recreational than middle-class and poor people so use our infrastructure far more.

The rich own more land and typically corporations or a group owns much of the farm land in the United States nowadays, and is heavily subsidized by the government otherwise they pay more out of their pockets.

The rich would probably much rather have a decent educated guy selling them coffee, cleaning their cars, etc otherwise if they don't know math or whatever the simpliest thing may be, they could be paying more than they should for services. You need schools funded so you have that, and so when they hire people to their businesses they aren't retarded and screwing up, therfore costing them money

It's simple though; who do you think pays more for insurance, the guy with the Honda Civic, or the guy with Jaguar? Isn't there more at stake and a bigger investment with the guy with the Jag?

JohnWOlin said:

The rich have more at stake obviously, they need an army to protect their assets, that not even a Brinks security could protect of course.

The rich while I can't think of any particular survey definately do far more traveling business and recreational than middle-class and poor people so use our infrastructure far more.

The rich own more land and typically corporations or a group owns much of the farm land in the United States nowadays, and is heavily subsidized by the government otherwise they pay more out of their pockets.

The rich would probably much rather have a decent educated guy selling them coffee, cleaning their cars, etc otherwise if they don't know math or whatever the simpliest thing may be, they could be paying more than they should for services. You need schools funded so you have that, and so when they hire people to their businesses they aren't retarded and screwing up, therfore costing them money

It's simple though; who do you think pays more for insurance, the guy with the Honda Civic, or the guy with Jaguar? Isn't there more at stake and a bigger investment with the guy with the Jag?

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assumptions speculation and guessing.


try to get some real proof. Education is paid for by property taxes, roads are paid for by gasoline taxes. there are airport taxes as well.

what do the rich get from Medicare and Medicaid? from AFDC type programs. Guess who makes up the majority of people in federal prisons? guess how much that costs per person? when rich people get convicted they are hit with massive fines and forfeitures. so they often pay for the cost of their prosecution. The vast majority of people in prison were poor or lower middle class and they mainly prey on their peers

again a flat tax or consumption tax would still result in the rich paying far far more-it would prevent people like you and your choices for congress jacking up my taxes while leaving your rate alone

TurtleDude said:

more lies

the rich pay a higher average income tax rate than any other group

almost half the country pay less than 5%.

YOU HAVE NEVER ANSWERED MY QUESTION-what is the FAIR SHARE FOR THE TOP ONE PERCENT TO PAY--right now they pay more of the tax burden (FIT and Death tax) than at any time in history-40%

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1) Given that the top 1% of the US population controls 40% of the wealth, it seems pretty equitable. But the discussion should be about tax burden rather than income tax as individual FIT is only a single form a taxation and not the only form. What is this recent obsession with income tax in distinction with all of the other taxes available. It seems to me on another thread I got a "woe is me" argument from you telling me you had a 50% tax burden because you (incorrectly) added all of these taxes and whined. Are you the only one that pays so many different forms of tax? NO. This notion that 47% of the people pay little or no FIT is irrelevant as tax is tax and government revenue is government revenue. The group of people that pay little or no income tax pay a much higher percentage of their income on FICA, sales taxes, often property tax, gas taxes, government use fees. They can use the same argument to suggest the wealthy to do not pay their fair share of such taxes as you are making to suggest they do not pay their fair share of FIT. Its time to let go of your obsession that the less fortunate pay less income tax unless you want to step up you contribution on the other taxes.

2) There is no such thing as a death tax. Substantially everyone gets to die without having to pay taxes. Those with wealth do have a tax. While I agree that the $1 million threshold on the estate tax is much too low, the concept of the estate tax is among the most equitable of all taxes. You have to raise revenue. Every dollar collected from an estate tax relieves the need to collect a dollar against income or spending from those that are living and trying to balance their personal budgets. As Americans we believe in the idea of keeping what you earn. Passing an estate from one generation to another is not rewarding earning, it rewarding being a member of the lucky womb club. This transfer of wealth works to concentrate it ( potential investment capital) with those with no proven competence to appropriately deploy it. Since you have to tax, taxing here should be the least painful of all. Granted the mechanics need work (including the definition of an estate), but the concept of an estate tax is quite sound.

The idea that we somehow need to protect the very wealthy in this country from excessive taxation (which is at its lowest levels in 50 years) is absurd. This type of political sideshow is exactly why this country is in serious do-do. There is no sense of duty to country among its citizens, just a sense of duty to self and letting the weaker suffer to pay the consequences of our collective malfeasance.

The real mystery in America is why any of the other 98% fall down on their knees to service the wealthy against their own self interest. You cannot really blame Turteldude for defending his fellow billionaires. He lives there up on the big hill in that 27 room McMansion with the Olympic sized swimming pool filled with $100 dollar bills and he wants to keep it that way. I can see how he defends his life style, why he wants to keep his servants and all that goes with it. I can understand why he makes such frequent posts here defending the rich when his fellow wealthy send him nice checks for carrying the water for them. No problem there.

But why would somebody making 40 or 50 grand a year struggling to make ends meet stick their neck out to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to wealthy people? Do they simply like the taste of kissing the wealthy rears? Do they labor under the delusion that somehow, someway, someday they too will become the next Bill Gates and then everybody else can pucker up behind them?

I have this no account brother-in law who has gone from one lowest rung on the ladder sales job to another over the last 35 years. He never advances and never has two nickels to rub together. He has no retirement package as he has changed jobs at least twenty times and his wife is even worse off than he is. But he listens religiously to Limbaugh, thinks that Beck does not need a toilet in his house because the great god is above such human problems, and defends the rich with the zeal that Turtle does right here.
stupid stupid stupid. Do you think the rich love such people as their equals or do they laugh at them with thinly veiled contempt?

Its a strange strange world we live in Master Jack.

TurtleDude said:

assumptions speculation and guessing.


try to get some real proof. Education is paid for by property taxes, roads are paid for by gasoline taxes. there are airport taxes as well.

what do the rich get from Medicare and Medicaid? from AFDC type programs. Guess who makes up the majority of people in federal prisons? guess how much that costs per person? when rich people get convicted they are hit with massive fines and forfeitures. so they often pay for the cost of their prosecution. The vast majority of people in prison were poor or lower middle class and they mainly prey on their peers

again a flat tax or consumption tax would still result in the rich paying far far more-it would prevent people like you and your choices for congress jacking up my taxes while leaving your rate alone

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where i live, education is funded by payroll tax...

randel said:

if you had your way, the rich would pay no taxes, you seem to labor under the assumption that if they pay little to no taxes, that they will 'magically' reinvest that money in ventures to create jobs.....again, they got a tax cut, where are the jobs? as for your 47%, are they economically able to afford a hike in taxes? seems your goal is to create a permanent upper class, a group that is able to pass on wealth from generation to generation, and to keep the working masses in their places.

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First of all you don't know me therefore you don't know that I believe that the rich should pay no taxes but you do have a serious problem understanding what I posted. I don't care how much you make or anyone else nor do I believe that class warfare is productive. You certainly seem to know what I think but have trouble defending your position on what you think.

You also don't understand the financial situation of others either so don't know whether or not those paying no taxes can afford to pay any but you continue to defend them. I asked you since you are concerned about fairness, is that fair?

My goal and I have been successful at it is to show liberals for eactly who they are, jealous, power hungry individuals who want to keep people dependent on them. If you work and pay taxes, you got a tax cut from President Bush and are benefiting from that today. Instead of worrying about yourself and how you can become less dependent on the govt, you are worried about what others make, what others pay in taxes, and whether or not someone else is paying their fair share. Doesn't look to me like you even understand what fair really means. Do some research and find out exactly how much the rich pay in taxes instead of making a fool of yourself by talking about fairness in the tax code.

I responded to your comments about creating jobs but of course as usual you ignored that response.

JohnWOlin;1059139778]The rich have more at stake obviously, they need an army to protect their assets, that not even a Brinks security could protect of course.

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That is really scary if that is what you think, we need a military to protect the assets of the rich? That is what the police do and they are funded by state and local taxes. Again you don't understand taxes at all.

The rich while I can't think of any particular survey definately do far more traveling business and recreational than middle-class and poor people so use our infrastructure far more.

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Of course you cannot think of a survey because there is none. Infrastructure is funded by excise taxes on gasoline, diesel, and other use taxes, not Federal Income taxes. I really worry about people like you who don't understand the various taxes and their use.

The rich own more land and typically corporations or a group owns much of the farm land in the United States nowadays, and is heavily subsidized by the government otherwise they pay more out of their pockets.

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Another misinformed statement based upon your own personal opinion. Prove that comment.

The rich would probably much rather have a decent educated guy selling them coffee, cleaning their cars, etc otherwise if they don't know math or whatever the simpliest thing may be, they could be paying more than they should for services. You need schools funded so you have that, and so when they hire people to their businesses they aren't retarded and screwing up, therfore costing them money

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Pure speculation on your part based upon lack of understanding of taxes, human behavior, and personal responsibility.

It's simple though; who do you think pays more for insurance, the guy with the Honda Civic, or the guy with Jaguar? Isn't there more at stake and a bigger investment with the guy with the Jag?

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The people that own things pay for insurance as they should. What a poor argument, insurance for a civic is a lot less than the insurance for a Jaguar, again those with the higher assets pay more.

Conservative said:

First of all you don't know me therefore you don't know that I believe that the rich should pay no taxes but you do have a serious problem understanding what I posted. I don't care how much you make or anyone else nor do I believe that class warfare is productive. You certainly seem to know what I think but have trouble defending your position on what you think.

You also don't understand the financial situation of others either so don't know whether or not those paying no taxes can afford to pay any but you continue to defend them. I asked you since you are concerned about fairness, is that fair?

My goal and I have been successful at it is to show liberals for eactly who they are, jealous, power hungry individuals who want to keep people dependent on them. If you work and pay taxes, you got a tax cut from President Bush and are benefiting from that today. Instead of worrying about yourself and how you can become less dependent on the govt, you are worried about what others make, what others pay in taxes, and whether or not someone else is paying their fair share. Doesn't look to me like you even understand what fair really means. Do some research and find out exactly how much the rich pay in taxes instead of making a fool of yourself by talking about fairness in the tax code.

I responded to your comments about creating jobs but of course as usual you ignored that response.

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hmmm...what is that favorite line of yours...oh! i remember!!! 'results matter'....the rich got their tax break, where are the jobs(remember, results matter!!) as for your goal....you believe what you want to believe, posters better than i have shown you, time and time again, how little you know .

randel said:

where i live, education is funded by payroll tax...

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No, where you live like where everyone else lives education is funded by state taxes which in your case are property taxes and property taxes are not payroll taxes. I suggest you have your spouse explain it to you.

TurtleDude said:

why do you make such dishonest comments.. He has never advocated that the rich pay no taxes.

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certainly no more dishonest than the generalizations that he makes about people he has never met, but claims to know what is in their hearts and minds.

Conservative said:

No, where you live like where everyone else lives education is funded by state taxes which in your case are property taxes and property taxes are not payroll taxes. I suggest you have your spouse explain it to you.

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no, conservative, you don't live where i live, i rent, i don't own, and every week, my employer takes taxes out of my paycheck for my local school district...please don't speak of things that you have no clue about. thank you.

randel said:

hmmm...what is that favorite line of yours...oh! i remember!!! 'results matter'....the rich got their tax break, where are the jobs(remember, results matter!!) as for your goal....you believe what you want to believe, posters better than i have shown you, time and time again, how little you know .

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Everyone that pays taxes got a tax cut under President Bush. Where are the jobs? Go to BLS and see how many jobs were created from 2001-2007. Then tell me that you aren't still benefiting from the Bush tax cuts. Why do you believe raising the taxes on the rich is going to benefit the economy? There are a lot of posters better but none have explained how raising the taxes on the rich is going to put 16 million unemployed people back to work or benefit the economy. We all know that you are still benefiting from the Bush tax cuts so if you are so concerned send that tax cut back.

Conservative said:

Everyone that pays taxes got a tax cut under President Bush. Where are the jobs? Go to BLS and see how many jobs were created from 2001-2007. Then tell me that you aren't still benefiting from the Bush tax cuts. Why do you believe raising the taxes on the rich is going to benefit the economy? There are a lot of posters better but none have explained how raising the taxes on the rich is going to put 16 million unemployed people back to work or benefit the economy. We all know that you are still benefiting from the Bush tax cuts so if you are so concerned send that tax cut back.

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where are the jobs?? results matter!!!