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House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

Patria Antiqua said:
Nothing is a done deal in politics, ever.
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LOL!

well, for the foreseeable...

ie, 2 years

I'm glad it happened, actually.
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who cares

the opinions of webb and manchin and nelson, et al, are all that signify

and leadership lost, as done as a deal can be

for now

sorry
 
Moderator's Warning:
Patria Antiqua is now thread banned from this thread.
 
Patria Antiqua said:
I already stated explicitly that no one achieves wealth entirely on their own initiative.

First of all, I don't give a damn what your "preferred version" is.

Secondly, you don't live in a third world country. You live in a country where everyone is, to some extent, dependent on the labor of others. It's a simple division of labor. Nobody would be where they are today if society didn't have every kind of labor -- from burger flippers to loggers. You are, to one degree on another, dependent on others to uphold a society that permits you to secure wealth and then secures that wealth for you from theft.

You can't be a lawyer without people to pass laws and then people to judge cases, or without people to teach your law classes, or without people who make all of the paper you use. If you worked hard in law school, good for you, but other people's labor made it possible, not just your own. In exchange for all of that, it's incumbent on you to do your part to ensure a society where everyone has the same opportunities as you.

Now, respond without blabbering about the Founders or a rant about personal responsibility. Thanks in advance.
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We call it a "Democratic Republic" ... the framework, that is. The only "labor" that i got that wasn't willingly given in return for income was from my parents. Otherwise, all voluntarily sold their services and product to me, either directly or via taxes, and with that income then went and purchased the services and production of others for their own use. However, it is not incumbant on me to provide opportunity to anyone. That is horse****. Show me any law that says I have to "provide opportunity". There are laws by which I have to respect the rights and property of others, and laws where I am limited in my ability to discriminate where I enter into contracts with or provide service to others, but you version of "opportunity" is not founded in law.

Now, with all your blustering, I will ask you again. Can you demonstrate how these rich folks, specifically that being people with incomes between $250-500K, are not earning their money ? Or are these the ramblings of a terrapin expecting something for nothing ?

Oooops. Just saw the ban. Guess no answer will be forthcoming :).
 
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Conservative said:
Tell us what "very liberal" means because all I see from very liberal people is jealousy and promotion of bigger govt. Is profit a four letter word in your world? Think it is right that 47% of the income earners in this country don't pay any Federal Income taxes?
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So what? That does not mean the are not taxpayers. Virtually everyone is taxed and pays some form of tax. The 47% of the people you cite pay a much higher percentage of their incomes on sales tax, gasoline tax and FICA that the other 53%, giving them the right to bitch and moan that the 53% have it easy.

I love these people that cite that so much of the population pays no tax, yet they are so quick to add up all of the taxes and tell you they are paying more then half their income in tax (which is a complete myth, but that is another discussion). Let's be intellectually honest here... either income tax is just a particular form of tax, in which case no one is exempt of taxation; or income tax is the only tax.... in which case, its hard to complain about taxes as it rare that one pays more that 25% of his income in income tax.

Stop with your class envy. Everyone has a tax burden.
 
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upsideguy;1059138574]So what? That does not mean the are not taxpayers. Virtually everyone is taxed and pays some form of tax. The 47% of the people you cite pay a much higher percentage of their incomes on sales tax, gasoline tax and FICA that the other 53%, giving them the right to bitch and moan that the 53% have it easy.
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Doesn't look like you understand the tax structure of this country and the difference between use taxes and Federal Income taxes. Please tell me what sales taxes, gasoline taxes, and FICA taxes fund and thus their relationship to Federal Income Taxes.

I love these people that cite that so much of the population pays no tax, yet they are so quick to add up all of the taxes and tell you they are paying more then half their income in tax (which is a complete myth, but that is another discussion). Let's be intellectually honest here... either income tax is just a particular form of tax, in which case no one is exempt of taxation; or income tax is the only tax.... in which case, its hard to complain about taxes as it rare that one pays more that 25% of his income in income tax.
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I love people who divert from the thread topic in hopes of making some kind of points. At debate here are the extension of the Bush tax cuts and that has nothing to do with the other taxes you mentioned. How can you say it is a myth that some people pay over 50% of their income in taxes. You need to get out more and do some research. What you don't seem to understand is that income taxes are taxes on what you make and use taxes are taxes upon what you use. If you don't drive a car, you don't pay gasolline taxes, if you don't own a home, you don't pay property taxes, if you don't buy anything you don't pay sales taxes but if you earn income you are to pay income taxes yet 47% don't. Get it yet?

Stop with your class envy. Everyone has a tax burden.
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No, everyone doesn't have an income tax burden and since income taxes fund the govt. 47% aren't paying any share of that responsibility. I am for extention of all the Bush tax cuts thus have no class envy. I am part of an ideology that doesn't really care how much money YOU make. Only liberals care what someone else makes yet it does seem that liberals want do define fair by creating their own definition.
 
upsideguy said:
So what? That does not mean the are not taxpayers. Virtually everyone is taxed and pays some form of tax. The 47% of the people you cite pay a much higher percentage of their incomes on sales tax, gasoline tax and FICA that the other 53%, giving them the right to bitch and moan that the 53% have it easy.
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What do you have to support that ? A "much higher percent", that is. Simple math says otherwise. The progressive nature of our tax system surely says otherwise. As many who pay no income tax receive added benefits, there's a good chance many are net recipients of government services, not net taxpayers (see food stamps, for example). The numbers are not there for you.

upsideguy said:
I love these people that cite that so much of the population pays no tax, yet they are so quick to add up all of the taxes and tell you they are paying more then half their income in tax (which is a complete myth, but that is another discussion). Let's be intellectually honest here... either income tax is just a particular form of tax, in which case no one is exempt of taxation; or income tax is the only tax.... in which case, its hard to complain about taxes as it rare that one pays more that 25% of his income in income tax.

Stop with your class envy. Everyone has a tax burden.
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Again, with about 25% of society as net recipients, meaning they get back more than they pay in, many do not have a net burden. We do have higher end income earners, where if the Bush tax cuts expire on them, will be paying over 50% easily in taxes to the Fed and States. Take NY. Just with federal income tax, state income tax, sales tax, and average property tax, many will be over 55% of income. Its really not quite as you wish it was. And like the race card, class envy is very much a well-used tool of the Democrats. As evidence, I present this picture from today. Can you tell me what is misleading about it ? You can see enough to tell. Thanks

TAXES_s400x267.jpg
 
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Z3n said:
I would hope that they pay more than the bottom 95%? The top 1 percent includes multi-billionaires? lol try again?
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Yes, the top 1% includes billionaires. The top 1% pays more than the bottom 95% combined
Does that sound fair to you?
 
Guy Incognito said:
It's about as fair as the top 1% owning as much as the bottom 95% combined.
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Who are you to determine what is fair? You might even become more successful if you weren't so worried about what someone else makes or owns.
 
Guy Incognito said:
It's about as fair as the top 1% owning as much as the bottom 95% combined.
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more confusion from you-its a tax on income not wealth and the top 1% do not have more income (40%) than those who pay less income taxes
 
Conservative said:
Who are you to determine what is fair? You might even become more successful if you weren't so worried about what someone else makes or owns.
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I can determine what is fair and it isn't. I've done things that not one person on this forum could have ever dreamed of because of work I have done and earned, but I still don't think it's fair. Everyone should get to do what I've been able to do, but not everyone can.

I've done things that were so easy for me to do and made ridiculious amounts of money off of it--like the equivalent of $500 an hour while other people do honest work for far, far less. Am I better than everyone else? No. I'm just lucky that I can sucker someone into paying me the equal of $500/hr for something that comes naturally to me. Chances are these people in the top 1% while worked hard at it, didn't have to work hard to be good at it, it is something that came naturally to them, the real challenge to them was making a lot of money overtime.
 
JohnWOlin said:
I can determine what is fair and it isn't. I've done things that not one person on this forum could have ever dreamed of because of work I have done and earned, but I still don't think it's fair. Everyone should get to do what I've been able to do, but not everyone can.

I've done things that were so easy for me to do and made ridiculious amounts of money off of it--like the equivalent of $500 an hour while other people do honest work for far, far less. Am I better than everyone else? No. I'm just lucky that I can sucker someone into paying me the equal of $500/hr for something that comes naturally to me. Chances are these people in the top 1% while worked hard at it, didn't have to work hard to be good at it, it is something that came naturally to them, the real challenge to them was making a lot of money overtime.
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That is the point, you are the one that chooses what is fair income for you but you cannot choose what is fair to make for someone else. Many don't understand that concept. Why would anyone want the govt. to make that choice for them?
 
Conservative said:
That is the point, you are the one that chooses what is fair income for you but you cannot choose what is fair to make for someone else. Many don't understand that concept. Why would anyone want the govt. to make that choice for them?
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part of the liberal elite assumptions is that they are in the best position to determine what is best for others and what is fair. That's why you hear them claiming "the rich" don't pay "their fair share" (it is true-the "rich" pay far more than their fair share-fair being most objectively defined as paying for what you use)
 
TurtleDude said:
part of the liberal elite assumptions is that they are in the best position to determine what is best for others and what is fair. That's why you hear them claiming "the rich" don't pay "their fair share" (it is true-the "rich" pay far more than their fair share-fair being most objectively defined as paying for what you use)
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Right, liberals want to define fair share by whatever sells to their base yet they never offer specifics, just rich is bad. Notice how they never talk about the money the rich give to charities but they have no problem pointing to the very few that give free enterprise and capitalism a bad name.
 
I am giving an example. After a point there is a such thing as having to much money and running out of **** to buy. But since you asked for a legit reason why they should pay more taxes I will give it to you.

You know that massive DoD budget you guys like? The rich typically have much more to protect so GASP! It only makes sense that you pay more to protect your stuff from the scary terrorist!

You know those airports and highways you so frequent between your power meetings, etc? Who the **** do you think funds that ****? Do you think poor people in trailer parks use those to much? REALLY?! They don't oh but you use them a **** load? Well you should be paying a bit more then shouldn't you!

You want your employees to be well educated and their high school diploma to be more than a piece of paper so they aren't ****ing up and losing your company money? Well **** then you better pay some more taxes so they don't **** up and lose you even more money in the long run!

You know though, we could just make up what you don't want to pay by taking away all the other tax breaks you get from the government. Oh you don't want them taken away either? Well geez Ebeneezer. Anyways that is all I can think of off the top of my head. Give me awhile I could probably think of a lot more that makes rich people bitching about this look pretty dumb for being such smart gifted rich people.
 
Conservative said:
Right, liberals want to define fair share by whatever sells to their base yet they never offer specifics, just rich is bad. Notice how they never talk about the money the rich give to charities but they have no problem pointing to the very few that give free enterprise and capitalism a bad name.
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Waht is funny is that rich libs get alot of credit from the envious for the anti rich bs that the liberal elites engage in (look at the cyber-slurping of Buffett that went on on this forum) Yet the dull minded minions never understand that there are a bunch of people who are rich ONLY BECAUSE they have political power (how did "poor country school teacher Al Gore senior die a multi millionaire when the highest paid job he officially have was US SEnator which never paid more than 100K during his time in office) and they get that power by catering to the envious. If you are a rich dem, being in power is far more valuable than the costs you have to pay in sustaining class warfare.

Right now John Kerry (on Meet the Press) is whining about the tax cuts for the rich. Now here is a guy who married into money he didn't earn but realizes paying a couple million a year more money is peanuts compared to the wealth and power he gets by being a senator.
 
JohnWOlin said:
I am giving an example. After a point there is a such thing as having to much money and running out of **** to buy. But since you asked for a legit reason why they should pay more taxes I will give it to you.

You know that massive DoD budget you guys like? The rich typically have much more to protect so GASP! It only makes sense that you pay more to protect your stuff from the scary terrorist!

You know those airports and highways you so frequent between your power meetings, etc? Who the **** do you think funds that ****? Do you think poor people in trailer parks use those to much? REALLY?! They don't oh but you use them a **** load? Well you should be paying a bit more then shouldn't you!

You want your employees to be well educated and their high school diploma to be more than a piece of paper so they aren't ****ing up and losing your company money? Well **** then you better pay some more taxes so they don't **** up and lose you even more money in the long run!

You know though, we could just make up what you don't want to pay by taking away all the other tax breaks you get from the government. Oh you don't want them taken away either? Well geez Ebeneezer. Anyways that is all I can think of off the top of my head. Give me awhile I could probably think of a lot more that makes rich people bitching about this look pretty dumb for being such smart gifted rich people.
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More to protect? Rich people have more means to protect what they have. They live in low crime areas, have strong doors and sophisticated alarm systems and can hire private detectives and security.

Your pathetic rants seem to think that right now the rich aren't paying the lions share of income tax. the top 1 percent PAY FORTY PERCENT OF THE INCOME TAX.

WHAT PERCENT DO YOU THINK IS FAIR?
 
JohnWOlin;1059139661]I am giving an example. After a point there is a such thing as having to much money and running out of **** to buy. But since you asked for a legit reason why they should pay more taxes I will give it to you.

You know that massive DoD budget you guys like? The rich typically have much more to protect so GASP! It only makes sense that you pay more to protect your stuff from the scary terrorist!

You know those airports and highways you so frequent between your power meetings, etc? Who the **** do you think funds that ****? Do you think poor people in trailer parks use those to much? REALLY?! They don't oh but you use them a **** load? Well you should be paying a bit more then shouldn't you!
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Seems your prejudices are showing, why is it that money has to buy "things" and not do good things? Again, who are you to determine what is right for someone else?

That massive DoD Budget that you are so concerned about is about 1/5 of the U.S. Budget and that is the role of the Federal Govt. according to the Constitution. You know, that little discussed phrase, "Provide for the Common Defense?" Looks to me like you don't understand the line items in the budget even though I have posted them many times.

You also don't understand the taxes that we pay and their supposed use. Those highways are funded by gasoline taxes so if those poor people don't drive they don't pay the taxes. Again the issue here is INCOME TAXES. If you earn income you are taxed unless you are part of the 47% that don't pay any net income taxes. Is that fair in your world?

You want your employees to be well educated and their high school diploma to be more than a piece of paper so they aren't ****ing up and losing your company money? Well **** then you better pay some more taxes so they don't **** up and lose you even more money in the long run!
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You think it is the Federal Government's thus the national taxpayer to fund local schools? No, those are funded by the states and local communities. Again you are confused as to the taxes and their use.

You know though, we could just make up what you don't want to pay by taking away all the other tax breaks you get from the government. Oh you don't want them taken away either? Well geez Ebeneezer. Anyways that is all I can think of off the top of my head. Give me awhile I could probably think of a lot more that makes rich people bitching about this look pretty dumb for being such smart gifted rich people.
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Please learn the difference between the Federal and State responsibilities and thus the taxes we pay.
 
Conservative said:
Right, liberals want to define fair share by whatever sells to their base yet they never offer specifics, just rich is bad. Notice how they never talk about the money the rich give to charities but they have no problem pointing to the very few that give free enterprise and capitalism a bad name.
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ya know, i don't believe i've seen an argument that 'rich are bad'..i've seen arguments over what tax rates should apply to the rich, i've seen arguments over what income amount a person has to have to be considered rich, i've seen arguments over what responsibilities the rich have to society....what i have seen is statements by yourself and turtledude, screaming 'class warfare' 'who are you to decide what the rich should pay' '47%' 'tax cuts create jobs'( where are these jobs, as the tax cuts are still ongoing at the moment?) everytime this subject is brought up, and an attempt at intelligent conversation on the topic is made, the two of you come in screaming with your undies in a bunch, pretending that you know better than anyone else here about tax policy, about economics, about life in general, and anyone who disagrees with you is a leftwing nutjob, liberal , communist, socialist(insert label here).
 
JohnWOlin said:
You know that massive DoD budget you guys like? The rich typically have much more to protect so GASP! It only makes sense that you pay more to protect your stuff from the scary terrorist!
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obama ESCALATED afghanistan

You know though, we could just make up what you don't want to pay by taking away all the other tax breaks you get from the government. Oh you don't want them taken away either? Well geez Ebeneezer. Anyways that is all I can think of off the top of my head. Give me awhile I could probably think of a lot more that makes rich people bitching about this look pretty dumb for being such smart gifted rich people.
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LOL!

tell it to the boss

Tax Breaks for Bailout Recipients Spark Debate - WSJ.com
 
Of course you have more means to protect your stuff. But what happens when God forbid, a full scale assault happens on us, do you got tanks to protect your homes and your money in the banks? If a war wiped out a bunch of people you rely on to make profit then that doesn't that harm you? Thankfully, you have this massive army to prevent that. So are you saying you don't support the military and don't want to continue to contribute your fair share to make sure you keep getting your fair share?

obama ESCALATED afghanistan
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Very true, and not good either.
 
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randel said:
ya know, i don't believe i've seen an argument that 'rich are bad'..i've seen arguments over what tax rates should apply to the rich, i've seen arguments over what income amount a person has to have to be considered rich, i've seen arguments over what responsibilities the rich have to society....what i have seen is statements by yourself and turtledude, screaming 'class warfare' 'who are you to decide what the rich should pay' '47%' 'tax cuts create jobs'( where are these jobs, as the tax cuts are still ongoing at the moment?) everytime this subject is brought up, and an attempt at intelligent conversation on the topic is made, the two of you come in screaming with your undies in a bunch, pretending that you know better than anyone else here about tax policy, about economics, about life in general, and anyone who disagrees with you is a leftwing nutjob, liberal , communist, socialist(insert label here).
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Typical rant on your part that ignores the content of the posts being made. The tax cuts that Bush inacted continue to benefit even you today. They did not overcome the financial crisis that hit the country in 2008 nor could they but they still help you and your family on each paycheck. How is that a bad thing?

If you want to pay more to the govt. do it but stop whining about what someone else pays as it doesn't affect you, your family, or even the nation. Spending is the problem, not tax cuts and that is where you seem to lack basic understanding.

I have never called you a "leftwing nutjob" but I do call people who promote class envy people with an agenda that really don't care about anything but promoting govt. power. You are good at throwing titles and names around without offering much in the way of substance. Don't you find it somewhat puzzling that I don't really care how much money you make? Why do you care what someone else makes?
 
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