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Thread: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I disagree. Administering programs from a strong central government is entirely possible. They keys would be streamlining, efficiency, and organization. Now, things would need to trickle down to the local level, of course.
    Not without usurping the authority and responsibility of the states. How does a strong central govt. administer social programs at the local level without waste, fraud, abuse, and high govt. overhead? Promoting the Domestic Welfare is a far cry from Providing for the Domestic Welfare.

    Right now a couple dozen states have filed suits against Obamacare and the govt. mandate. You also have state taxes that fund local services so on top of that you want the Federal Govt. and Federal Tax dollars doing the same thing. That is one of the reasons we are in this mess, duplicate responsibilities and thus duplicate expenses. In a country of 310 million people one size doesn't fit all and all social programs should be left up to the states.

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I disagree. Administering programs from a strong central government is entirely possible. They keys would be streamlining, efficiency, and organization. Now, things would need to trickle down to the local level, of course.
    In theory, but in the entirety of the Republic, the track record for the effective administering of virtually any program is miserable. Whether seeped in bueaucratic waste, multiple layers of inefficiency, spoils, and then becoming vehicles by which to purchase votes, big government has made a disaster of it all. One can say all they want about making it "steamlined and efficient", but it has never happened, or if it has its been lost as the exception. Success seems more achievable when the programs have been administered as close to local as possible.

    Its like Reagan said. "The nine most feared words are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'".

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    In theory, but in the entirety of the Republic, the track record for the effective administering of virtually any program is miserable. Whether seeped in bueaucratic waste, multiple layers of inefficiency, spoils, and then becoming vehicles by which to purchase votes, big government has made a disaster of it all. One can say all they want about making it "steamlined and efficient", but it has never happened, or if it has its been lost as the exception. Success seems more achievable when the programs have been administered as close to local as possible.

    Its like Reagan said. "The nine most feared words are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'".
    All anyone really has to do is look at the Great Society and the trillions wasted there. We have a 14 trillion dollar debt that many want to blame on the so called unfunded wars when the reality most of that is due to the costs of the Great Society and other liberal feel good social programs that are really state and local responsibilities.

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Not without usurping the authority and responsibility of the states. How does a strong central govt. administer social programs at the local level without waste, fraud, abuse, and high govt. overhead? Promoting the Domestic Welfare is a far cry from Providing for the Domestic Welfare.

    Right now a couple dozen states have filed suits against Obamacare and the govt. mandate. You also have state taxes that fund local services so on top of that you want the Federal Govt. and Federal Tax dollars doing the same thing. That is one of the reasons we are in this mess, duplicate responsibilities and thus duplicate expenses. In a country of 310 million people one size doesn't fit all and all social programs should be left up to the states.
    I'm OK with the central government having more authority than the states. And the central government will be the administrators with the local governments working under them.

    And I agree with the problem of duplicate responsibilities and services being a problem. Streamline them. Central government is the adminstrators and directors, the local government impliments the policies.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    In theory, but in the entirety of the Republic, the track record for the effective administering of virtually any program is miserable. Whether seeped in bueaucratic waste, multiple layers of inefficiency, spoils, and then becoming vehicles by which to purchase votes, big government has made a disaster of it all. One can say all they want about making it "steamlined and efficient", but it has never happened, or if it has its been lost as the exception. Success seems more achievable when the programs have been administered as close to local as possible.
    Probably hasn't happened because it is so often so bogged down with political wranglings that efficiency comes a distant second. Also, most folks who manage things are political appointees. This has always been distasterous. Look at the Civil War. Some of the early losses the Union suffered were due to Lincoln giving generalships to political appointees. Once West Pointers were in charge, things went much better. Government needs to drop the partisanship and put the best people in charge.

    And though success may be achievable on the local level, it is only acheivable on a small scale. Take the successful local programs, make them national, and put those who actually made them sucessful, in charge.

    Its like Reagan said. "The nine most feared words are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'".
    Yeah, I never bought into that statement. It's a nice anti-government talking point, but the government is certainly helpful at times.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm OK with the central government having more authority than the states. And the central government will be the administrators with the local governments working under them.

    And I agree with the problem of duplicate responsibilities and services being a problem. Streamline them. Central government is the adminstrators and directors, the local government impliments the policies.
    Then you are in conflict with our Founders and the Constitution that put the power in the hands of the states, closer to the people. The Founders knew that power corrupts and that is what has happened with the massive growth in the Federal govt. By having the power in the states the people are closer to their leadership. This would be a great thread topic but contrary to this thread topic.

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Then you are in conflict with our Founders and the Constitution that put the power in the hands of the states, closer to the people. The Founders knew that power corrupts and that is what has happened with the massive growth in the Federal govt. By having the power in the states the people are closer to their leadership. This would be a great thread topic but contrary to this thread topic.
    doesnt power corruput on the state level, or is it just a federal thing?

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    doesnt power corruput on the state level, or is it just a federal thing?
    If it does that power is closer to the people and identifiable vs. being in D.C. and being one of 435. Corrupt officials at the national level are harder to get rid of than state officials and affect more people.

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    hey, i'm all for charity, contribute myself, but you do know that many charities are struggling to meet the demand for their services, right?? i'm so tired of people on here, mostly from the right , accusing those who are unemployed , of being 'lazy, no good, pieces of ^^^^, who don't want to work, but on the other hand, screaming about the lack of jobs, AND THEN wanting to cut these people off from unemployment...can you turtle, can you promise me that the charities in this country can meet the demand for aid? can you? no, you can't. can they meet the need long term? again, no they can't. i've no problem with my government helping out those in need...is it abused by some? sure is..by all, no, no it isnt. in hard times this country is supposed to pull together, help each other out, not say to your neighbor, 'sorry, but i guess your just sh^^ outta luck'. that is a piss poor attitude to have, and when you are more concerned about having a few more dollars in your pocket than you are about your fellow citizens, that is a sad commentary on where this country is heading, and what this country is becoming. its not a left or right thing turtle, its about giving a f### about your fellow Americans....when you care more about a few extra bills in your wallet than you do about your fellow americans, that is piss poor.
    Actually you're asking your government to look after your fellow Americans, when fellow Americns should be looking after each other. There is a very big difference.

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    Re: House Passes Middle-Class Tax Cut as Dems, GOP Try to Reach Compromise

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's cool. Just trying to understand where your argument is coming from and wanting it to be fleshed out a bit.
    i think having some 'safety net' programs such as food stamps and unemployment benefits benefit society on the whole...if we don't have 'lifelines' such as these, i believe you would see an uptick in petty crime, crime such as shoplifting, gasoline drive offs, and alot of this crime would be by people who have never had a previous criminal record, but when you have to feed yourself and feed your family, or have fuel to look for a job, you will do things that you know are wrong, do things you are ashamed of, just to survive... if cutting benefits is the path we go down, i guarantee you will hear/see more instances of this type of crime, which of course, will be prosecuted, which cost the taxpayer money for the courts, if found guilty, the person will get anything from probation to prison, both require the tax payer to fork over more cash to pay for lawyers(lets face it, if you are so desperate to steal food or gas, you arent gonna have money for an attorney), for jail space, for prison/jail guards, and if the person is incarcerated, the system has to feed them...i guess it comes down to do we pay for benefits now, or do we pay several times later ? i conceed that yes, some people will abuse benefits, will milk the system for as long as they can, and as hard as they can, but by no means are they the majority. i will also conceed that yes, this costs taxpayers money...but what is cheaper? benefits now that allow people that lifeline to hang on until they can find work, or prosecuting desperate people later?

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