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Thread: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And really we get to the heart of it. Evil horrible racists hate the black people. Shocking, I couldn't have guessed that was really at the heart of the complaint and it was all based on stereotyping people.
    Man what a dishonest and crappy thing to do. I appreciate you misrepresenting my statement. Thanks.

    You make it sound like racism in the South is just something people are imagining.

    Most of my family is from Louisiana and Mississippi. So don't discount what I am saying based on your anecdotal evidence.

    Fact is it is alive and well in allot of places, not just the deep South.
    - Blackdog
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    But it's not valid and they did it for the wrong reasons. The first thing they did with the new Constitution after the formation of the confederacy was make it so slavery could not be removed. Yea for states rights.
    They had the right to secede, it was certainly valid. The Federal government has interest in keeping the Republic together, so they fought and the North won. That's that. I don't see this new demonstration as anything to do with slavery. I think it's a stupid connection to make. Just because one mentions the Civil War doesn't mean they are talking about or to slavery. The demonstration is more along the lines of secession and the ability of States to engage in it when they no longer feel that the Republic is good for them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They had the right to secede, it was certainly valid. The Federal government has interest in keeping the Republic together, so they fought and the North won. That's that. I don't see this new demonstration as anything to do with slavery. I think it's a stupid connection to make. Just because one mentions the Civil War doesn't mean they are talking about or to slavery. The demonstration is more along the lines of secession and the ability of States to engage in it when they no longer feel that the Republic is good for them.
    There is no doubt that the government of the time operated in a manner that held the North's industrial interests as far more important than the needs of the agrarian South. That built a solid unity within the Southern states as "us versus them" that was far deeper than the north. Northerners looked down on the South, which built huge resentment.

    However, slavery puts such a tinge of ugliness on the South, it makes their plight impossible to sympathize with for folks today. Keep in mind that if the north needed slavery, it would have had it. Instead, they just worked 8-year-olds for 12 hours a day instead.

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They had the right to secede, it was certainly valid. The Federal government has interest in keeping the Republic together, so they fought and the North won. That's that. I don't see this new demonstration as anything to do with slavery. I think it's a stupid connection to make. Just because one mentions the Civil War doesn't mean they are talking about or to slavery. The demonstration is more along the lines of secession and the ability of States to engage in it when they no longer feel that the Republic is good for them.
    According to the Supreme court they did not. So I don't know how "valid" that would be.

    They are celebrating an illegal act that at it's heart was racist.
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    According to the Supreme court they did not. So I don't know how "valid" that would be.

    They are celebrating an illegal act that at it's heart was racist.
    Secession in and of itself is not racist.

    The SCOTUS opinion on the matter was only valid because the South lost. Had they won, it wouldn't matter what the SCOTUS says. And of course, they'd say it's illegal. That's part of the overall federal government there, it's there to preserve the Republic. Just because a government deems something illegal does not make it invalid. Revolution would most certainly be deemed illegal, yet can often times be valid. Revolution, after all, is a perfectly valid and proper tool of the People. As secession is for the States.
    Last edited by Ikari; 11-30-10 at 12:34 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Secession in and of itself is not racist.
    I agree it's not. In this case though, one of the driving forces for the rebellion was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The SCOTUS opinion on the matter was only valid because the South lost. Had they won, it wouldn't matter what the SCOTUS says. And of course, they'd say it's illegal. That's part of the overall federal government there, it's there to preserve the Republic. Just because a government deems something illegal does not make it invalid. Revolution would most certainly be deemed illegal, yet can often times be valid. Revolution, after all, is a perfectly valid and proper tool of the People. As secession is for the States.
    In this case most agree (an appeal to populism I know) it was not for the right reasons. On top of that they lost, so the victors law is all that matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I agree it's not. In this case though, one of the driving forces for the rebellion was.
    Slavery was one of the motivating reasons for seccesion. Not the only one, and not the one being celebrated by this new group. But yes, at the time it certainly was a motivator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    In this case most agree (an appeal to populism I know) it was not for the right reasons. On top of that they lost, so the victors law is all that matters.
    I'm pretty sure I did say something like "The SCOTUS opinion on the matter was only valid because the South lost.". While now people can look back and say "of course slavery is wrong"; that wasn't the ideal back then. And what the South thought they were fighting for was their property and their liberty. We have the gift of hindsight to sit now and say "well of course slavery is wrong, and the South was wrong for endorsing it". A true statement. But the institution of slavery is not what is being endorsed nor celebrated by this other group looking to raise awareness of State secession.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Slavery was one of the motivating reasons for seccesion. Not the only one, and not the one being celebrated by this new group. But yes, at the time it certainly was a motivator.
    It never said it was the only one. Yes it was a motivator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm pretty sure I did say something like "The SCOTUS opinion on the matter was only valid because the South lost.". While now people can look back and say "of course slavery is wrong"; that wasn't the ideal back then. And what the South thought they were fighting for was their property and their liberty. We have the gift of hindsight to sit now and say "well of course slavery is wrong, and the South was wrong for endorsing it". A true statement. But the institution of slavery is not what is being endorsed nor celebrated by this other group looking to raise awareness of State secession.
    It goes beyond the secession. The Southern states then enacted racist laws to stop blacks from voting and then interracial marriage. I am not even going into Jim Crow which only ended in 1964. I was alive then and my parents remember it well, as they had to leave the South to get married.

    They are celebrating something that should have never happened and caused long string of situations that go up until today. They are celebrating a cause for a war they lost, and started for evil reasons. It can only be seen as hostile to blacks, it's like throwing it on our face.

    Revolution for a bad cause is just that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    The North recognized a lot of those laws too, particularly the marriage one. It had nothing to do with the secession movement. This is like that GOP candidate who liked to dress up and play war. He was enamored with a particular SS brigade (or whatever they're called, I'm not up on military jargon) because of the historical context of the unit itself. Fair enough. Dressed like a Nazi soldier during WW II reenactments. And what happened? The press got the picture, published it, and then all of a sudden people were saying that he was a Nazi. He believed in whatever nonsense the Nazi's said. He's celebrating Hitler, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. In short, the same **** you're trying to pass off now.

    I didn't buy it then, I ain't buying it now. They're not celebrating slavery, no matter how much you really want to sit there and make the case. They are celebrating secession particularly as it relates to our current political environment. It is not an endorsement of slavery, they are not saying "bring back slavery". They are saying "Hey, these 11 States in the past seceded and you [government] need to be paying attention NOW. To what you are doing, how you are behaving, and how you are acting against us. We did it then, we can do it now, secession is a proper tool of the State". That's it. They're pissed off at the current incarnation of government and they made this celebration to blow off steam. It's not some ****ing celebration to slavery or any of that BS. So let's move on, shall we?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: South celebrates Civil War, largely without slaves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The North recognized a lot of those laws too, particularly the marriage one. It had nothing to do with the secession movement. This is like that GOP candidate who liked to dress up and play war. He was enamored with a particular SS brigade (or whatever they're called, I'm not up on military jargon) because of the historical context of the unit itself. Fair enough. Dressed like a Nazi soldier during WW II reenactments. And what happened? The press got the picture, published it, and then all of a sudden people were saying that he was a Nazi. He believed in whatever nonsense the Nazi's said. He's celebrating Hitler, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. In short, the same **** you're trying to pass off now.
    Has nothing to do with my statements. I used to dress up as a rebel solider for civil war re-enactments, they have nothing to do with this.

    As far as the North recognizing some, I never said they didn't. The South however was the main culprit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I didn't buy it then, I ain't buying it now. They're not celebrating slavery, no matter how much you really want to sit there and make the case.
    I am not all that concerned whether you buy it or not to be honest. I have already made my case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari;1059129779 They are celebrating secession particularly as it relates to our [b
    current[/b] political environment. It is not an endorsement of slavery, they are not saying "bring back slavery". They are saying "Hey, these 11 States in the past seceded and you [government] need to be paying attention NOW. To what you are doing, how you are behaving, and how you are acting against us. We did it then, we can do it now, secession is a proper tool of the State". That's it. They're pissed off at the current incarnation of government and they made this celebration to blow off steam. It's not some ****ing celebration to slavery or any of that BS. So let's move on, shall we?
    That is a typical libertarian view so I am not surprised. What they are doing has an undertone you chose to ignore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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