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Thread: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

  1. #21
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    So on one hand you say that this is how the world works; on the other hand, you say that we shouldn't know about it because it could be damaging to a country's reputation?
    I'm saying that although most intelligent people are aware that countries do things like this behind the scenes, that doesn't mean that the specifics should be bared to the world.

    Everyone knows that everyone poops. Does that mean that you wouldn't have a problem with everyone you know watching you poop? Everyone knows that everyone lies. Does that mean that you wouldn't object to every one of your lies being categorized and exposed to the world?

    I think if the public had awareness into "how the world works", they would be calling up every politician to have the system changed. The fact that our governments operate parallel but hidden from the public and conduct themselves in corrupt matters that run counter to publicly stated policy should be of grave concern to everyone.

    You say it's just the way it works; well, it works that way because we are prevented from knowing about it. Knowledge is power. That is how change happens. If they are doing seedy business behind our backs but with our money and political capitol, then they deserve every bit of exposure they are getting.
    And like I said, most people are already aware of this. It's just how society works. We can't all live in a fantasy world where everything is smiles and handshakes.

    Put aside your pride for a minute and maybe you would see that this is not about anti-Americanism. I am well aware that the Canadian government is and has been involved in a lot of shady business too. We have probably the worst offenders in power right now in Canada. Just because I am pointing out that the U.S. deserves to be exposed, don't think for a minute that that goes only for the U.S. I think any country engaged in acts of corruption that is supposed to be answerable to its people deserves every bit of negative exposure it gets IF it is engaged in such business.
    I'm sure that you always feel that way. I think it's just more visible when it comes to the US.

    I find it very telling that you have instead decided to shift your concern to people like me or toward blaming Wikileaks themselves, as opposed to looking at the information with an unbiased mind. Do you not care what your government does? If there are diplomatic problems over this or new security concerns, they are the fault of your own government and no one else. All countries may behave the same but all countries who get exposed had it coming.
    And like I've said repeatedly, I think this is a naive and overly simplistic position.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm saying that although most intelligent people are aware that countries do things like this behind the scenes, that doesn't mean that the specifics should be bared to the world.
    Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that, aren't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Everyone knows that everyone poops. Does that mean that you wouldn't have a problem with everyone you know watching you poop? Everyone knows that everyone lies. Does that mean that you wouldn't object to every one of your lies being categorized and exposed to the world?
    The function of the media is partially to keep government in check. I see nothing wrong with what Wikileaks is doing. Does it create problems for the U.S.? Sure it does... but as someone else in this thread said, that is collateral. If you have dishonest policy then you only put yourself at risk if you are exposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And like I said, most people are already aware of this. It's just how society works. We can't all live in a fantasy world where everything is smiles and handshakes.
    I don't see anyone here claiming that the world is that way. In fact, I think allowing our governments to remain dishonest and underhanded is achieving the kind of world that is increasingly unsafe and haphazard for future generations.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm sure that you always feel that way. I think it's just more visible when it comes to the US.
    This is an American forum, I've accepted that for a while now. If I talk about Canada, no one cares; if I don't talk about Canada, people accuse me of being anti-American. I'm not going to bother being a people pleaser. I am happy with what Wikileaks is doing. If you wish you think that that means I'm dancing on America's grave, then be my guest. I really don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And like I've said repeatedly, I think this is a naive and overly simplistic position.
    Again, you're entitled.

  3. #23
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that, aren't you?
    And you're invited to dispute it, if you can.

    The function of the media is partially to keep government in check. I see nothing wrong with what Wikileaks is doing. Does it create problems for the U.S.? Sure it does... but as someone else in this thread said, that is collateral. If you have dishonest policy then you only put yourself at risk if you are exposed.
    And for the third or fourth time, I think that's exceedingly simplistic.

    I don't see anyone here claiming that the world is that way. In fact, I think allowing our governments to remain dishonest and underhanded is achieving the kind of world that is increasingly unsafe and haphazard for future generations.
    If you think that anything will ever result in countries (or people) not being dishonest or underhanded, then yes, you are living in a fantasy world.

    This is an American forum, I've accepted that for a while now. If I talk about Canada, no one cares; if I don't talk about Canada, people accuse me of being anti-American. I'm not going to bother being a people pleaser. I am happy with what Wikileaks is doing. If you wish you think that that means I'm dancing on America's grave, then be my guest. I really don't care.
    Okay!
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And you're invited to dispute it, if you can.
    There's nothing to dispute really. You think the leak is a bad thing, I don't. Our argument has been fairly circular.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And for the third or fourth time, I think that's exceedingly simplistic.
    Yet you can't explain why.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If you think that anything will ever result in countries (or people) not being dishonest or underhanded, then yes, you are living in a fantasy world.
    No, I'm a realist. I know the world isn't perfect. What does perfect mean anyway? But when it comes to things like war, and terrorism, it's actually a fairly simple matter. If you don't want war, don't start one; if you don't like terrorism, then stop terrorizing other countries with your foreign policy, causing several generations of young people to become jihadis. If you don't like corruption, then STOP contributing to it.

    On the other hand, if you really don't care whether or not any of these things exist and you want to engage in them, then just be up front about it. All this talk about how the U.S. is the best, and it stands for all of these virtues... it's a load of ballony. The same goes for all the stated humanitarian objectives of Canada and the western world. We're in it for ourselves, we just go about it in different ways.

    My beef is more that they are lying than the actions themselves, and they are using our money to do it, and without our consent.

    NYC, I think your main problem is that you have too much pride, and you assume I am just attacking America. I am actually attacking the entire human condition.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Yet you can't explain why.
    I explained it several times.

    Believe it or not, every country (including your own perfect paradise) says and does things behind the scenes that they don't want made public. They do this because it's how the world works. Should those words and actions become public, it would have a negative impact on that country's standing in the world and on the way in which other countries are willing to cooperate. To any reasonable person, that would be considered a bad and dangerous thing.
    I'm saying that although most intelligent people are aware that countries do things like this behind the scenes, that doesn't mean that the specifics should be bared to the world.

    Everyone knows that everyone poops. Does that mean that you wouldn't have a problem with everyone you know watching you poop? Everyone knows that everyone lies. Does that mean that you wouldn't object to every one of your lies being categorized and exposed to the world?
    Don't really know how I can make it any clearer.

    No, I'm a realist. I know the world isn't perfect. What does perfect mean anyway? But when it comes to things like war, and terrorism, it's actually a fairly simple matter.
    No, no it's not.

    If you don't want war, don't start one; if you don't like terrorism, then stop terrorizing other countries with your foreign policy, causing several generations of young people to become jihadis. If you don't like corruption, then STOP contributing to it.
    Like I said - incredibly simplistic. If you really believe this, then there's no point in discussing this any further.

    NYC, I think your main problem is that you have too much pride, and you assume I am just attacking America. I am actually attacking the entire human condition.
    And I'm pointing out that in the real world, we can't all live like you think we should.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    There wasn't anything of any real shock released the last time. I'm starting to wonder if the U.S. government isn't just feeding this guy a buncha crap, to keep him occupied.
    Actually, there WAS something of real shock issued the last time. Wikileaks compromised the lives of Afghanis who were helping us, and exposed them to assassination.

    I stongly believe that holding our government accountable is a very good thing. However, Wikileaks crossed the line when they put lives at risk, and in my honest opinion, the owner of Wikileaks should be rotting in prison for doing that.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Actually, there WAS something of real shock issued the last time. Wikileaks compromised the lives of Afghanis who were helping us, and exposed them to assassination.

    I stongly believe that holding our government accountable is a very good thing. However, Wikileaks crossed the line when they put lives at risk, and in my honest opinion, the owner of Wikileaks should be rotting in prison for doing that.
    Fair enough.

    But the question I always ask when talking about Torture by the United States is "What about the innocents?". And I always get told "What Innocents?" Or "Link to abuse of an innocent".

    Can you name one person who's been affected by this? Is there a story on it.

    To be honest if there was I'd love to see it, because I think he should be held accountable.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Fair enough.

    But the question I always ask when talking about Torture by the United States is "What about the innocents?". And I always get told "What Innocents?" Or "Link to abuse of an innocent".

    Can you name one person who's been affected by this? Is there a story on it.

    To be honest if there was I'd love to see it, because I think he should be held accountable.
    It wasn't just one informant that was outed. It was hundreds of them.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It wasn't just one informant that was outed. It was hundreds of them.
    I understand that some have been outed.

    My point is, have any deaths occured because of it?

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I explained it several times.
    Yes, and I don't agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Don't really know how I can make it any clearer.
    It was clear, I just don't agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Like I said - incredibly simplistic. If you really believe this, then there's no point in discussing this any further.
    Human behaviour is simplistic at its root.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And I'm pointing out that in the real world, we can't all live like you think we should.
    Who is this "we"? Take responsibility for your own beliefs. The world is what you make of it. You have been crystal clear on what you think the world is like and should be. Just because I don't have the same belief as you, does not make me delusional. But please keep invoking the pathos all you want.

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