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Thread: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

  1. #111
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Through the recognition that what you are aware of might not even be the slightest of what makes the collective of secrets that - due to the nature of secrets - the state does not share with the entire world, one must realize that your claims about this collective of secrets and your belief that those secrets must be accessable by every single human being on planet Earth are dependent on neither logic nor reality itself.
    Again, you don't seem to understand what constitutes logic. Deductions about how things work generally can be made without knowing all the facts based on facts we do know if they relate to what we are trying to deduce. You can refer to the scientific method if you wish, in which things can be deduced about how things work generally without knowing every single fact relating to that thing. Governments make poor decisions a great deal of the time, they attempt to hide these mistakes as often as possible, any government agency that is encouraged to keep things secret will naturally run itself even more inefficiently than one in which obfuscation is not expected. Of course there is no chance of maintaining national security without obfuscation. It is a necessary evil. However, it is quite logical to assume that the reasons for obfuscating are more often than not illegitimate ones.

  2. #112
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Yes, because when I think of secretive governments that deserve to have their misdeeds exposed, I don't think of North Korea, Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia. I don't think of China, Russia, Venezuela, or Cuba. I don't think of Chad, Somalia, the Sudan or Burundi. I think of America, the UK and their allies.

    If wikileaks actually gave a **** about improving transparency for the sake of transparency, it would be focusing its energies on other places. It's focusing on America because it's run by a bunch of filthy ****ing hippies who are opposed to the wars in the middle east and get hard at the thought of embarrassing America.
    This shows how little you know of wikileaks. I mean I just heard about it from this thread and it appears that I've done more homework than you already and all it took was a look at wikipedia. (though I hate using wikipedia most of the time it is normally good for things that can be verified through other sources)

    To list some of what they have leaked in the past...

    Apparent Somali assassination order signed by Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys
    Daniel arap Moi family corruption a former Kenyan leader
    Scientology
    Climatic Research Unit emails
    Internet censorship lists for several countries in Australia
    Peru Oil Scandal
    Toxic dumping in Africa: The Minton report


    And more.

    So perhaps before trying to make out like they are purposely ignoring the rest of the world and just "get hard at the thought of embarrassing America" you should read up on them and try to get to know them a little before you pass judgement.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Again, you don't seem to understand what constitutes logic. Deductions about how things work generally can be made without knowing all the facts based on facts we do know if they relate to what we are trying to deduce. You can refer to the scientific method if you wish, in which things can be deduced about how things work generally without knowing every single fact relating to that thing. Governments make poor decisions a great deal of the time, they attempt to hide these mistakes as often as possible, any government agency that is encouraged to keep things secret will naturally run itself even more inefficiently than one in which obfuscation is not expected. Of course there is no chance of maintaining national security without obfuscation. It is a necessary evil. However, it is quite logical to assume that the reasons for obfuscating are more often than not illegitimate ones.
    I completely understand what you're getting at Ben; you're saying that because the "government secrets" that were exposed so far 'usually' fit the standrads you pose for secrets that could be shared with the entire world, then it is logical to assume that the collective of those secrets usually fit the same standards.

    In other words, you're saying that by knowing the truth value of some of the sentences in a system or group of sentences, you may claim to know the truth value of every single one or the majority of the sentences in that group - while not even knowing the amount of sentences that make the members of that group - and this is not a logical attitude, this is an illogical and an irrational attitude.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Like Ben K and Kal'Stang above you too have proven that you do not need to rely on facts for your opinions to be held.
    There is no proof that I'm aware of which might even imply that the US has been training and/or arming Kurdish terrorists. Claims by one government or another are merely claims, and if Iran claims that America was behind the killing of some professor from 2 years ago or so then that doesn't imply it was.

    Bottom line if you do not rely on facts and rely entirely on your beliefs than your contribution is meaningless and nonexistent, and your comments irrelevant.
    If the US government supported Bin Laden during the Cold War why would there not be a repeat of such actions in a different country?

    Bottom line is when there are hints of something going on and no concrete evidence you have to look to the past and see if it is possible that such a thing is happening. Then you go out and find those hard facts. Trusting that the government will always make the right choices and will always think of your (the citizens) welfare is like trusting a rapist in a room full of tied down naked women and him having the only key to the 10ft thick concrete front door.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    That's a pretty serious charge there buddy. Got any evidence to back this up?
    Got another theory as to how this person accessed this much classified info, without getting arrested, or bumped off?

    How about an explanation--your opinion that is--as to why the Obama administration doesn't seem to all that freaked out about the leaks? The administration's reaction was to warn everyone about how embarressing the leaks would be; as if they already know exactly what's going to be leaked.

    This guy is being fed information and it's not coming from some GS-level bureaucrat, either.

    If he wasn't being fed this info from the highest levels of our government; why hasn't our government taken step to prevent further leaks?

    That leaves one of two options; 1) Obama's people are allowing this info to be splattered all over the internet, or 2) they just too ****ing incompetant to stop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    No but I want to know when my soldiers are ****ing up and it is hidden and alot HAS been hidden from the public which should have been released such as the fact a British Rifleman shooting dead an 8 year old Iraqi Girl for playing in the street. Oh I'm so sure she was such a security threat. Only after it was made public did the British Military launch an investigation. Bastard soldier probably would have got off scot free

    Wikileaks is something I will support
    What makes you think the shooting was intentional?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I completely understand what you're getting at Ben; you're saying that because the "government secrets" that were exposed so far 'usually' fit the standrads you pose for secrets that could be shared with the entire world, then it is logical to assume that the collective of those secrets usually fit the same standards.

    In other words, you're saying that by knowing the truth value of some of the sentences in a system or group of sentences, you may claim to know the truth value of every single one or the majority of the sentences in that group - while not even knowing the amount of sentences that make the members of that group - and this is not a logical attitude, this is an illogical and an irrational attitude.
    Again, you don't understand what I'm saying. I never claimed to know the truth value of every sentence in the paragraph or whatever analogy you choose to use. I claim that based on whatever group of senteces that is exposed to me (or becomes exposed to me despite the best intentions of the author) out of a contiguous paragraph (or has some other flaw best suited to the analogy), if the majority of those sentences are untruthful, it is logical for one to assume the rest of the paragraph has the same problem. It is simply irrational to believe otherwise.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If wikileaks actually gave a **** about improving transparency for the sake of transparency, it would be focusing its energies on other places. It's focusing on America because it's run by a bunch of filthy ****ing hippies who are opposed to the wars in the middle east and get hard at the thought of embarrassing America.
    And you accused me of oversimplifying.

  9. #119
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    This shows how little you know of wikileaks. I mean I just heard about it from this thread and it appears that I've done more homework than you already and all it took was a look at wikipedia. (though I hate using wikipedia most of the time it is normally good for things that can be verified through other sources)

    To list some of what they have leaked in the past...

    Apparent Somali assassination order signed by Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys
    Daniel arap Moi family corruption a former Kenyan leader
    Scientology
    Climatic Research Unit emails
    Internet censorship lists for several countries in Australia
    Peru Oil Scandal
    Toxic dumping in Africa: The Minton report


    And more.

    So perhaps before trying to make out like they are purposely ignoring the rest of the world and just "get hard at the thought of embarrassing America" you should read up on them and try to get to know them a little before you pass judgement.
    I'm well aware of what wikileaks used to do. If you read the wikileaks wiki page, I'm sure you noticed that none of those things happened within the past year. That's because they've changed their mission to almost exclusively focus on the US and the wars in the middle east.

    But hey, don't take my word for it:

    [A] number of former members say that the website's obsession with pursuing the US military has resulted in Wikileaks losing sight of its founding principle that all leaks should be made available to the public no matter how large or small. ... At least a dozen key supporters of the website are known to have left in recent months. They say Wikileaks has ignored reams of new exposés because so much attention has been paid to the Iraq and Afghan conflicts.

    ...

    According to former supporters, the submission section is down because a number of key personnel have fallen out with Assange over the direction of the website and his behaviour. "Outside of the Iraq and Afghan dossiers, Wikileaks has been incapacitated by internal turmoil and politics," Smari McCarthy, a former Wikileaks volunteer and freedom of information campaigners from Iceland, told The Independent. "Key people have become very concerned about the direction of Wikileaks with regard to its strong focus on US military files at the expense of ignoring everything else."
    Part of the problem for Wikileaks has been the huge amount of data it has had to mine in processing the Afghan and Iraq war logs, which comprised tens of thousands of field reports written in dense military jargon. But some of those who have grown uncomfortable with the direction of the website say more attention should still have been paid to leaks from outside of the US military – specifically the dramatic increase in submissions from whistleblowers within closed countries, dictatorships and corporations.


    ...

    Last month the website's second most visible face after Assange – a German spokesperson who went by the name Daniel Schmidt, but whose real name is Daniel Domscheit-Berg – broke ranks to disclose that he had quit after being suspended by Assange for unspecified "bad behaviour". Like others who have since left Wikileaks, he cited both the website's direction and Assange's behaviour as motivating factors behind his leaving. "This one-dimensional confrontation with the USA is not what we set out to do," Mr Domscheit-Berg told Der Spiegel.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 11-28-10 at 03:11 AM.
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  10. #120
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Got another theory as to how this person accessed this much classified info, without getting arrested, or bumped off?

    How about an explanation--your opinion that is--as to why the Obama administration doesn't seem to all that freaked out about the leaks? The administration's reaction was to warn everyone about how embarressing the leaks would be; as if they already know exactly what's going to be leaked.

    This guy is being fed information and it's not coming from some GS-level bureaucrat, either.

    If he wasn't being fed this info from the highest levels of our government; why hasn't our government taken step to prevent further leaks?

    That leaves one of two options; 1) Obama's people are allowing this info to be splattered all over the internet, or 2) they just too ****ing incompetant to stop it.
    It seldom gets much clearer then that, great post and right on point.

    I learned today from a former CIA agent on "FOX NEWS," not one of the pundit shows, that our Government has the ability to shut down Wikileaks Computers servers before they can post another word, and keep them shut down. But Obama has chosen not to.

    Why is that. We hear loads of Bovine Scatology coming from the White House and yet they won't lift a finger to shut it down, and it is as simple as the use of one finger.

    Obama has been the number one "Firster." (a Firster is one who blames the America he hates for all the ills of the world) Since he came on the scene and began to go to work on destroying our economy, and right off the mark he set out on his Apology tour he kisseing the asses of people who support to terrorism all over.

    He just days ago gave the Palestinian Terrorists $200 million, and dig anyone call him on it? Hell no, because they know they would have heard that he gave the money to help people who are in need. However he gave the money to the Government and that is Hamas and they are known terrorists.

    You give a group that has been identified as terrorists $100 dollars and see what happens to you.

    I am forbidden to use the language required to show the contempt this Obama "person."

    As a Christian I am supposed to hate the sin and not the sinner but it's getting to be a real challenge.

    Conservatives should have no illusions about using your freedom of speech no with Obama having his enemies list because through use of Carnivore they can pick up on key words and phrases used in posts and or E-mails they have admitted what they once laughed at and called a conspiracy theory thought up by nuts. So welcome to the list. I was on it long ago I suspect right after the first time I called Obama a Socialist/Marxist way before the election. But now it's been proven in his own words.
    Last edited by Councilman; 11-28-10 at 05:12 AM.

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