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Thread: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

  1. #101
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    In my book, real world consequences are more important than distorted versions of theoretical goals like "increased transparency".
    And wikileaks is one of the real world consequences you get when you have a secretive government.
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Any Americans involved in this website should be hanged, and any foreign spies that participate in the website should be assassinated as such.

    No government should tolerate such brazen, shameless espionage of this sort.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If it leads to it, no.

    Turkey is gradually becoming more hard lined for many reasons, the population are becoming, thank god more practising Muslims and the side effect is Conservatism. Wouldn't surprise me if religion takes a hold in Turkey over secularism

    That's why your earlier quote of "I don't blame Turkey for pulling away from the Western Axis and moving East if all these allegations are true" might be a good thing.

    The alternative of Conservative Muslims officially in the EU would not appear to be a positive for European stability.

    It seems they might belong more in the East, and kept at a safe distance.

  4. #104
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And wikileaks is one of the real world consequences you get when you have a secretive government.
    Yes, because when I think of secretive governments that deserve to have their misdeeds exposed, I don't think of North Korea, Pakistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia. I don't think of China, Russia, Venezuela, or Cuba. I don't think of Chad, Somalia, the Sudan or Burundi. I think of America, the UK and their allies.

    If wikileaks actually gave a **** about improving transparency for the sake of transparency, it would be focusing its energies on other places. It's focusing on America because it's run by a bunch of filthy ****ing hippies who are opposed to the wars in the middle east and get hard at the thought of embarrassing America.
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  5. #105
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    I would say it's a perfectly logical statement. It's the government in the end, they usually do things stupidly and inefficiently and they like to hide it where they can.
    When you're using the word "usually" you are implying that you have knowledge over every secret (or at least the majority of secrets) that the government keeps from the world public's eyes. Thus you too do not need to rely on what you know, on facts you are aware of, for your opinions to be held, just like Kal'Stang above did not need to rely on facts he is aware of, on what he knows to be true, for his belief about the US government to be held.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And it is also ignorant and absurd to think that the government doesn't keep secrets that the public should have known about from the get go.
    Never said anything like that so your comment is irrelevent to this discussion. Unless you've tried engaging in a straw man argument, and then it's not only irrelevant but is also inherently misleading.

    I've already given a couple of examples of such. While you did address one I notice that you did not answer the other. HCR closed doors. I'll get to the other below where you addressed it.
    I have no wish to address your examples as I am speaking generally here.
    Generally what the Wikileaks organization engages in, its "revelations" and its exposure of intel, is revolving the actions of the state's military, the US government specifically.

    If your enemy is involved then it is about things that the military needs to be involved in. In which case, yeah sure, keep it secret. But there is no valid reason to keep things like trade agreement talks secret. Or negotiations with your enemy secret.
    And once more, thus you're saying that you do not support Wikileaks and its founder who deliberately exposes secret military intel.

    There is a time limit on when military secrets should be kept secret. I've already listed such things but here they are again. Short term - troop movements. Long term - technological advantages.
    And it is up to and only up to the government of the state to decide when it releases such military intel to the public's eyes if it will. It certainly not up to any of the citizens of the country to expose their government's secret military intel, and certainly certainly not up to a foreign individual. People who do expose such secrets have a room kept for them in jail where they should rot for their crimes against the citizens of the country that has had its secret intel exposed.

    Give an example and we'll go from there on this one.
    Anything that could cause any level of risk of life to either the civilians of the country or its troops. That would count as every single intel that the military labels secret, from the unit schedule to the war's strategy and including information on informants of the state, of the capabilities of a state's military, locations of facilities, etc.

    Again, it depends on what is leaked. Since those at wikileaks seem to be intent on protecting those that may come into danger from this (such as individual military personnel) and their sources there is no harm in my book. Other than humilation for a government that is not keeping the morals of this country.
    So far the Wikileaks organization, while not going too far with its exposures, has indeed risked the lives of informants and several soldiers by leaking information of their details and actions. For that alone the entire organization should be brought down and its members trialed in a court of justice.

    That being said, we've yet to see what the next leak is about, and if it is even more damaging than the previous ones as the US claims it is then it only calls for further attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Turkish media have reported finding US arms in the hands of PKK terrorists that it captured or killed. The Turkish government has complained about US support of the PKK publically. I am sure that any turk who pays any attention to current events believes the US has been supporting the PKK. Somethng reported in Der Spiegel is not going to change it. At most confirm it. The greatest effect will be in public opinion of europeans and Americans
    Like Ben K and Kal'Stang above you too have proven that you do not need to rely on facts for your opinions to be held.
    There is no proof that I'm aware of which might even imply that the US has been training and/or arming Kurdish terrorists. Claims by one government or another are merely claims, and if Iran claims that America was behind the killing of some professor from 2 years ago or so then that doesn't imply it was.

    Bottom line if you do not rely on facts and rely entirely on your beliefs than your contribution is meaningless and nonexistent, and your comments irrelevant.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 11-27-10 at 04:16 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    When you're using the word "usually" you are implying that you have knowledge over every secret (or at least the majority of secrets) that the government keeps from the world public's eyes. Thus you too do not need to rely on what you know, on facts you are aware of, for your opinions to be held, just like Kal'Stang above did not need to rely on facts he is aware of, on what he knows to be true, for his belief about the US government to be held.
    No, from what I am aware of and is out in the open, the public sector runs things poorly and secrets that are kept and eventually revealed by media investigation or released by governments after the fact tend to reflect poorly on decisions made. It is quite logical to have a suspicion that the national security sector is simarly inefficient and attempts to hide the screw ups where they can since they're bound to be as poorly managed as any other sector run by government. The endorsed obfuscation that goes along with this particular government wing will naturally lead it to be more poorly run than any other, since mistakes can be more easily swept under the rug. A lack of transparency hardly encourages good work in any field, public or private. This goes for any country in the world as well.

    That said, it would be a mistake to see Wikileaks as anymore trustworthy with how they distribute the information they've found.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Brace yourselves because your about to see a side of America they condemn and say does not exist.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    I want to know when these leaks are released...

    If there was more info as to whether there were WMDs would definitely interest me.

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    No, from what I am aware of and is out in the open, the public sector runs things poorly and secrets that are kept and eventually revealed by media investigation or released by governments after the fact tend to reflect poorly on decisions made. It is quite logical to have a suspicion that the national security sector is simarly inefficient and attempts to hide the screw ups where they can since they're bound to be as poorly managed as any other sector run by government. The endorsed obfuscation that goes along with this particular government wing will naturally lead it to be more poorly run than any other, since mistakes can be more easily swept under the rug. A lack of transparency hardly encourages good work in any field, public or private. This goes for any country in the world as well.

    That said, it would be a mistake to see Wikileaks as anymore trustworthy with how they distribute the information they've found.
    Through the recognition that what you are aware of might not even be the slightest of what makes the collective of secrets that - due to the nature of secrets - the state does not share with the entire world, one must realize that your claims about this collective of secrets and your belief that those secrets must be accessable by every single human being on planet Earth are dependent on neither logic nor reality itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Brace yourselves because your about to see a side of America they condemn and say does not exist.
    Area 51?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: U.S. nervously awaits next WikiLeaks

    People are not entitled to knowing such secrets?

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