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North Korea reportedly fires at South

Khayembii Communique said:
I think people portray in their mind whenever they picture a dictatorship some kind of 1984-esque situation where the government is omniscient and omnipresent, and where the common man works long hours for little pay to purchase substandard goods, and that he is threatened at every corner with banishment to the work camps or execution for any single word that escapes his mouth that could be construed as in opposition to the current order, and that the police come and beat him up and take all his stuff whenever they want, etc... In reality that really isn't the case.
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lol

That is exactly the case in North Korea.

Human rights in North Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Banishment to work camps?

North Korean Prison Camp Escapee Tells of Horrors, Worries About Those Left Behind - washingtonpost.com

That from an actual escapee. But, oh, things are fine in North Korea...

Songun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is very obvious that the military-first 'Songun' policy has had overwhelmingly deleterious effects for the general population in a resource-starved country such as North Korea. It's not a question of states putting one interest group or another first, it is a question of why this particular country has implemented a system which so egregiously harms anyone who is not in the military.

Seriously, how can you defend in any way this sickening regime?
 
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Khayembii Communique said:
Quite the contrary, I think it shows that he, as a politician, is deeply grounded in reality. States the world over continually put the interests of this or that group over the interests of the people over which it resides. That does not make said politicians lunatics. That makes them politicians.
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Not when he puts his own interests above the interests of the people. Not when he disregards the suffering of his own people to satisfy his need of attention/revenge/assertion of power.

North Korean citizens are as much a victim in this as anyone else.
 
Seriously, how can you defend in any way this sickening regime?
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Lol I'm not, that's your delusion not mine. Why didn't you just come out and ask "why do you hate freedom?" :D

Animus said:
Not when he puts his own interests above the interests of the people. Not when he disregards the suffering of his own people to satisfy his need of attention/revenge/assertion of power.
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Neither of those make him a lunatic first off, and second he is part of a bureaucracy which is an entire stratification in its own right. "He" is not the one implementing policy, the bureaucracy is, and that is what I am saying people lose sight of. What we are talking about is a North Korean Thermidor.
 
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Hello everybody. I'm back for those who know me. After watching thenews on Yeonpyongdo (Yeonpyong Island),it made my blood boil and made me return to this forum after leaving

Some facts about the attack
The North Koren artillery attacked Yeonpyong Island between 2:34pm to 2:50pm (Korean time) We responded by K-9 howitzers raining upon them artillery shells (much more advanced equipment I might add)
2 marines dead
2 civilians disappeared
19 injured

The theory of why it happened:
1. a few days ago, a new nuclear facility was discovered in North Kore. I think the attack was meant to turn off attention from the facility or maybe we were on the verge of discovering something new. Maybe to divert attention

2. The Lee-Myung-Bak administration was the first modern administration to take an aggressive stance against NK. NK responded first by the Cheonan incident, and now this. I think that they taking what they think is defensive stance

3. Kim-Jong-Uen is about to take power. Yet many think that there's competition for power inside. To assert his power, I think Kim-Jong-Uen orchestrated this attack (many also suspect him of orchestrating the Cheonan incident for the same reason)

All three theories are the most likeliest one. I think that the first one is the likeiest. It is too much to be a coincidence
 
Proud South Korean said:
Hello everybody. I'm back for those who know me. After watching thenews on Yeonpyongdo (Yeonpyong Island),it made my blood boil and made me return to this forum after leaving

Some facts about the attack
The North Koren artillery attacked Yeonpyong Island between 2:34pm to 2:50pm (Korean time) We responded by K-9 howitzers raining upon them artillery shells (much more advanced equipment I might add)
2 marines dead
2 civilians disappeared
19 injured

The theory of why it happened:
1. a few days ago, a new nuclear facility was discovered in North Kore. I think the attack was meant to turn off attention from the facility or maybe we were on the verge of discovering something new. Maybe to divert attention

2. The Lee-Myung-Bak administration was the first modern administration to take an aggressive stance against NK. NK responded first by the Cheonan incident, and now this. I think that they taking what they think is defensive stance

3. Kim-Jong-Uen is about to take power. Yet many think that there's competition for power inside. To assert his power, I think Kim-Jong-Uen orchestrated this attack (many also suspect him of orchestrating the Cheonan incident for the same reason)

All three theories are the most likeliest one. I think that the first one is the likeiest. It is too much to be a coincidence
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Okay fine, I say let people on the Korean peninsula take care of it.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Lol I'm not, that's your delusion not mine. Why didn't you just come out and ask "why do you hate freedom?"
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Well feel free to explain to me the fairly obvious insinuation you made above:

Khayembii Communique said:
I think people portray in their mind whenever they picture a dictatorship some kind of 1984-esque situation where the government is omniscient and omnipresent, and where the common man works long hours for little pay to purchase substandard goods, and that he is threatened at every corner with banishment to the work camps or execution for any single word that escapes his mouth that could be construed as in opposition to the current order, and that the police come and beat him up and take all his stuff whenever they want, etc... In reality that really isn't the case.
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The upshot of this being that the mainstream consensus on North Korea is too negative.
 
The upshot of this being that the mainstream consensus on North Korea is too negative.
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Not too negative, just unrealistic. That was obvious when I said "In reality that really isn't the case."
 
Also, some more information:
The Russians and the Chinese would never support NK in a war. They risk too much economically, politcally, diplomatically, etc...
SK would win a war with NK. The NK's nukes will never work as there's interception missiles in SK to stop the nukes. However, SK will suffer huge damages as Seoul, our capital is in range of NK artillery (I, too is in Seoul)
The NK military has mostly outdated weaponry. They use weapons dating as well as back to WWII. Our nw K-2 tanks, K-9 howitzers, etc.... are more than a match for them.
However, the biggest threat is from assysmetric warfare
NK Special Forces number more than 100000 (the biggest in the world), and their submarine fleet is considerable.

Yet, SK will win a war with NK
 
I'm glad that I go to work and everyone resorts to calling eachother war hungry, or not patriotic enough. Let us all agree on one thing:

**** North Korea.

I told a few people at work about this and they freaked out. Of course, this is one of those "no no don't do that" but I asked a few of the Japanese at work how they feel about it and well, they essentially said it freaks them out a lot.
 
The best way to deal with NK is to just treat it like a rabied dog and eventually it'll die a natural death like the Soviet Union.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
LOL yes you totally destroyed me with that link to a wikipedia page. Cool story bro
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A classic fallacy - attack the source, not the actual information itself. And, oh, did it occur to you that those wikipedia pages were supported by a wide variety of totally unreliable sources such as Amnesty International and the UNHCHR? Sometimes it actually pays to read something all the way to the bottom before you attempt to criticise it.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
The viewpoint of the DPRK on this is blatantly obvious: RoK was performing simulated invasions of their country with live firing in disputed waters. The North reacted, in my opinion, with extreme restraint in this instance, as I think any sane person in the position of the DPRK would consider that an act of war and prepare accordingly. They did not retaliate (i.e. not attack) against the RoK simply to get some attention.
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The only problem with that hypothesis is that North Korea knew in advance that the military exercises were just that, exercises. Hence, North Korea was fully aware that there was no offensive intent to the military activity, which negates the theory of a preemptive attack aimed at thwarting an invasion. North Korea's surprise attack was nothing but an act of naked aggression as part of a larger strategy aimed at (1) procuring some kind of concession(s) and/or (2) ultimately gaining recognition as a nuclear weapons state so as to solidify Kim's Songun policy. Indeed, the latter is supported by a recent Washington Post story that reported, "The North Korean government told a team of visiting American experts last week that it would effectively dismantle one of its nuclear weapons programs if the United States again pledged that it had 'no hostile intent' toward the government of Kim Jong Il, a member of the delegation said." In other words, North Korea is trying to shift the playing field from denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula into its eliminating one of two or more nuclear programs.
 
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donsutherland1 said:
The only problem with that hypothesis is that North Korea knew in advance that the military exercises were just that, exercises. Hence, North Korea was fully aware that there was no offensive intent to military activity, which negates the theory of a preemptive attack aimed at thwarting an invasion. North Korea's suprise attack was nothing but an act of naked aggression as part of a larger strategy aimed at (1) procuring some kind of concession(s) and/or (2) ultimately gaining recognition as a nuclear weapons state so as to solidify Kim's Songun policy. Indeed, the latter is supported by a recent Washington Post story that reported, "The North Korean government told a team of visiting American experts last week that it would effectively dismantle one of its nuclear weapons programs if the United States again pledged that it had 'no hostile intent' toward the government of Kim Jong Il, a member of the delegation said." In other words, North Korea is trying to shift the playing field from denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula into its eliminating one of two or more nuclear programs.
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Excellent post. :thumbs:
 
apdst said:
And, I'm just a teeanager?

What? We're supposed to feel sorry for you, because you got some POG MOS in the what? Navy? Air Force? I doubt you'll see much trigger time, so don't sweat it, kid.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
 
Hicup said:
Problem is, no matter how fast, the North Koreans would get at least one NUKE off.
Tim-
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That's what I'm saying. Contingency plan or not it would be hard to pull off without massive casualties in the south intially.
 
Has the South responded, yet? I bet they will do nothing. Such a shame that the rest of the world told Skorea to restraint itself even America. And we all the Americans are the only nation where if you attack them they will respond with force. We'll even go so far as to invade and attack an innocent nation. But when a nation that is and has been attacked we tell them to restrain themselves. Gosh, this world we are living in really sucks.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Says the UN
the Big five powers all have veto power over any significant UN issue. Removing a permanent member of the security council is a significant issue
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I bet if you got a large enough consensus to kick China's ass out, they would be gone. What are they going to do? Declare war on the UN?
 
apdst said:
I bet if you got a large enough consensus to kick China's ass out, they would be gone. What are they going to do? Declare war on the UN?
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They would have to disband the UN first, then attempt to create a new similar organization. The creation of a new one would unlikely allow for the creation of permenant "Security Council Members" with veto power
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
They would have to disband the UN first, then attempt to create a new similar organization. The creation of a new one would unlikely allow for the creation of permenant "Security Council Members" with veto power
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Again, says who? The ancietn Aztec tablets, found in Sarajevo, that spell out the by-laws of the United Nations?

If the UN took away China's permanent status, what's China going to do? Complain to the UN?
 
a just for the hell of it post.

U.S. Should Get Out of Korean Peninsula

But why are Americans expected to sort out the mess? Rather than treating North Korea as a U.S. problem, Washington should turn the issue back to Pyongyang's neighbors. Any map demonstrates that the DPRK is primarily an issue for South Korea, Japan and China, not America. Only the South is vulnerable to a traditional conventional assault, and it is well able to protect itself. Japan is conceivably at risk from a North Korean missile attack, but the government of that wealthy, high-tech society could do far more in its own defense. The North isn't likely to attack the People's Republic of China, but any instability emanating from Pyongyang will affect the PRC. American disengagement would force the Chinese government to confront the North Korean "problem."
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U.S. Should Get Out of Korean Peninsula | Doug Bandow | Cato Institute: Commentary
 
apdst said:
Again, says who? The ancietn Aztec tablets, found in Sarajevo, that spell out the by-laws of the United Nations?

If the UN took away China's permanent status, what's China going to do? Complain to the UN?
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They CANT, by their own charter. Any major issue like that can be vetoed by China as a permanent member. Even if every other country on the council voted to remove China, China can simply veto that and it's done. Now, should the UN decide to ignore it's own rules and charter and remove China anyway, they would essentially castrate themselves in doing so.
 
Gray_Fox_86 said:
Has the South responded, yet? I bet they will do nothing. Such a shame that the rest of the world told Skorea to restraint itself even America. And we all the Americans are the only nation where if you attack them they will respond with force. We'll even go so far as to invade and attack an innocent nation. But when a nation that is and has been attacked we tell them to restrain themselves. Gosh, this world we are living in really sucks.
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Yeah, and whom might that be?


j-mac
 
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