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Thread: Terrorist found not guilty

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and how that evidence is obtained has no bearing on whether or not it adds up to proof. as I said, admissibility, in and of itself, is a BS technicality.



    I have a dozen or so firearms in my home. let the cops come and take everyone of them as "evidence" they will find no "proof" that any of them were used in the commission of a crime. would they go to the expense and time to do so if they didn't have reason to suspect me? i doubt it.
    But it's not up to you; it's up to a jury. If they decide it's enough, then it is - no matter if the cop gets punished or not. You're still in prison. Challenging a guilty verdict for insufficient evidence is a near-impossible task, and you're still in prison and paying through the nose while you do. with the exclusionary rule, you have a hearing and you're done.

    If a cop is following a hunch on scant evidence, then this all could well happen. Making it a lot harder makes it even more expensive to chase someone who's innocent.
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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    But it's not up to you; it's up to a jury. If they decide it's enough, then it is - no matter if the cop gets punished or not. You're still in prison. Challenging a guilty verdict for insufficient evidence is a near-impossible task, and you're still in prison and paying through the nose while you do. with the exclusionary rule, you have a hearing and you're done.

    If a cop is following a hunch on scant evidence, then this all could well happen. Making it a lot harder makes it even more expensive to chase someone who's innocent.

    juries convict innocent people all the time even with "legally obtained" evidence. If I ever get accused of a crime i didn't commit. I am waiving the jury trial and going with the trial by judge. at least then my fate won't be in the hands of 12 idiots too stupid to get out of jury duty.
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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    But it's not up to you; it's up to a jury.
    Not exactly. If evidence is ruled inadmissible - like the chief prosecution witness in this case - the jury never gets to hear about it.
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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Not exactly. If evidence is ruled inadmissible - like the chief prosecution witness in this case - the jury never gets to hear about it.
    Look at what I'm arguing. He's arguing AGAINST inadmissibility. Under his construct, there would be no ruling and it would be admitted.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    juries convict innocent people all the time even with "legally obtained" evidence.
    What support do you have for that? Give some specifics. How often, exactly, does it happen?


    If I ever get accused of a crime i didn't commit. I am waiving the jury trial and going with the trial by judge. at least then my fate won't be in the hands of 12 idiots too stupid to get out of jury duty.
    There's no reason to think you'd fare better that way, and lots of reason to think you'd be worse off. If there were generally the better approach, no defense attorney would opt for a jury trial.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    What support do you have for that? Give some specifics. How often, exactly, does it happen?




    There's no reason to think you'd fare better that way, and lots of reason to think you'd be worse off. If there were generally the better approach, no defense attorney would opt for a jury trial.

    dude, have you ever sat in a jury room waiting to be seated? it's like freakin Mos Eisley spaceport in there. the only time I ever actually had to serve, there was one old guy on the jury who wanted to convict the guy because "he just looks like he is guilty" and a lady that wanted to convict him because he owned a dog and she was afraid of dogs. no freaking thank you. Most defense attorneys are banking on the fact that the jury is so stupid that they can outsmart them.

    that and most defense attorneys probably think their client is actually guilty.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-18-10 at 04:33 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    dude, have you ever sat in a jury room waiting to be seated? it's like freakin Mos Eisley spaceport in there. the only time I ever actually had to serve, there was one old guy on the jury who wanted to convict the guy because "he just looks like he is guilty" and a lady that wanted to convict him because he owned a dog and she was afraid of dogs. no freaking thank you. Most defense attorneys are banking on the fact that the jury is so stupid that they can outsmart them.
    That's why there are (usually) 12; that's why it has to be unaminous. And both sides have a shot at that jury, so both sides can play to whatever stupidity they see. Just as many people complain that juries are too lenient.

    If you're placing your fate entirely in the hands of the judge, you're resting on one guy -- who may not like you. Who may be a hardass and think everyone's guilty. Who may be late for a golf outing. Whatever. With one guy, there's no check.

    that and most defense attorneys probably think their client is actually guilty.

    A defense attorney will think his client is guilty . . . if he's guilty. It's a very, very poor attorney who doesn't know.

    Besides, you want it both ways here -- how are all these supposed innocent people being found guilty ("all the time," you say) if the police and prosecutors don't bother with innocent people, and all the defense attorneys think they're guilty?

    If all this is true, wouldn't some extra safeguards not only be a good idea, but actually demanded by any sense of fair play and justice?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    we need some egghead to invent a freakin brain scan. then it would be one simple question: are you guilty of the crime with which you are charged? yes or no.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    we need some egghead to invent a freakin brain scan. then it would be one simple question: are you guilty of the crime with which you are charged? yes or no.
    Well, we don't have that. So the next best thing is to make the government work as hard as possible, dotting every i and crossing every t, before it takes someone's liberty away.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Well, we don't have that. So the next best thing is to make the government work as hard as possible, dotting every i and crossing every t, before it takes someone's liberty away.
    tell that to the parent's of the kid killed by the drunk driver who was released because the calibration on the breathalyzer was 2 days overdue, or to the lady who was raped by the guy who was released because the cop forgot to put an "x" in block 17a on the arrest warrant.

    I just think the level of what is or is not admissible is ridiculously biased in favor of the criminal. I am not argueing against checks and balances.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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