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Thread: Terrorist found not guilty

  1. #181
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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    "Also this is an issue that I am extremely opposed to the current administration."


    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. How effective has your opposition actually been? Would it be fair to say that your opposition to Obama's renewal of the Patriot Act is ineffective?
    Would it be fair to say that that has nothing to do with the original argument, would it also be fair to say that given your argument here that posting on this site at all is a waste of time?

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    [QUOTE=Sean_H;1059116517]
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    That is really outside the original point, changing the focus of the argument. What I was getting at was the comment about not caring about how evidence is obtained. I'm not doing the semantic thing today.
    You're quite right. It has drifted away and I'm partly responsible for that.

    But sloppy statements such as, "Are you suggesting that police should just be able to do as they please?" or "conservatives say they want smaller government but then they want to let the police or military invade our privacy and our homes" is hyperbole. I know of no one who supports either of these contentions.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059116658]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_H View Post

    You're quite right. It has drifted away and I'm partly responsible for that.

    But sloppy statements such as, "Are you suggesting that police should just be able to do as they please?" or "conservatives say they want smaller government but then they want to let the police or military invade our privacy and our homes" is hyperbole. I know of no one who supports either of these contentions.
    That's fair enough, most of the point of your quote was that strictly speaking conservatives and people who want limited government shouldn't be for things like the patriot act. And when said the way I said it no one actually supports those things but the quote here however is nearly as ridiculous when you look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I have always found the whole "inadmissible evidence" to be a crock.

    are you any less of a drug dealer just because the cops didn't have a search warrant when they found 8 million $$$ of drugs in your house?

    are you any less guilty of murder because the cop forgot to read you your rights before you confessed?

    are you any less of a terrorist because they poured some water over your head to get you to confess?

    people alway whine and cry about how the system sucks because sometimes an innocent person is convicted. how about all those times where some guilty POS is released due to some bull**** technicality?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's an argument which has raged for decades. It would put the burden of proof on the defendant to prove these violations took place, rather than put the burden on the government to show that the evidence was obtained cleanly. The burden should always be on the government.

    Inadmissibility is the most libertarian way to do it.
    Harshaw's view isn't unlike my own in this quote here.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean_H View Post
    Would it be fair to say that that has nothing to do with the original argument, would it also be fair to say that given your argument here that posting on this site at all is a waste of time?
    1. Maybe, maybe not.

    2. No.

  5. #185
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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Been out of the thread for a bit, but wanted to add a little. Going back to the thrust of the debate, I believe it to be the wisdom in choosing a Civilian Court trial vs. a Military Commission, and a debate over whether or not the outcomes would vary. The admissability of evidence has been one of the issues raised. Let me elaborate and add to that.

    1) The judges in a Military Commisiion are also the jury. As such, they rule on what they let themselves hear. They regard themselves more highly than a common civilian jury, and the pattern has been for them to want to hear the evidence, then decide how much to pretend not to matter because of torture and coercion.

    2) The verdict need not be unanimous with a Commission. 2/3rds will do.

    3) While evidence may be categorized as obtained by "torture" or "coercion", Military Commissions are also granted leeway in whether or not they will allow it. If it is deemed to have probative value, that is to be deemed significant enough, they can allow it. Or they can allow it for partial consideration. This will also vary based upon whether or not the coersion occurred before or after Dec 30, 2005, when the Detainee Treatment Act went into effect.

    More about Military Commissions here: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/...ommissions.pdf

    There is no doubt that the average defendent has somehwhat less Constitutional protections with a Commission. It can also be argued that most defendents there are not U.S. Citizens to begin with, and therefore do not have all the same protections as an American citizen to begin with.

    However, just the above three differences allow for the possibility of verdicts different from the Civilian process, weighted against the defendent. There are other advantages/disadvantages, but they do not go to evidence and verdict.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 11-22-10 at 09:11 PM.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I take comfort in the fact that the "one charge" they got him on carries a minimum 20 year sentence and a max of life.
    Shhh - don't tell J-Mac. He didn't bother to read the article he posted.

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    why does the white house see this verdict as such a loss?

    Verdict in terror case a setback for advocates of civilian trials

    why does combat boots webb want these matters handled in military tribunal?

    RealClearPolitics - Terrorists Don't Belong in Civilian Courts

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    Re: Terrorist found not guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Shhh - don't tell J-Mac. He didn't bother to read the article he posted.

    Hmm....Trolling again Hazel? I read everything before I post it. I just don't believe that 20 years is what America, or Obama had in mind with no conviction on the murder this man caused. In fact the only reason to bring it up now is the highlight on how far sympathizers like yourself will go to muddy the fact that this was embarrassing to Obama.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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