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Thread: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    In the context of current pay.
    But that doesn't really address "Protectionist's" point - in an imaginary world where we could actually kick the illegals out, that would go a long way toward reducing unemployment. A substantial portion of those jobs would be filled by legal citizens at higher wages, increasing taxable income and reducing unemployment.
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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And if they're forced to raise the salaries, then they no longer make any profit, the industry becomes uncompetitive, and it leaves the country entirely.
    This is an argument against minimum wage, not just against kicking out illegal immigrants. If the minimum wage is so high that it would drive jobs overseas, then I'm open to a discussion on lowering it. I just think that Americans and illegals should be on an equal playing field when competing for these jobs.

    If you have to pay tomato pickers enough to motivate American workers to pick tomatoes, then the price of American tomatoes will increase. This makes imports from other countries more attractive, and bankrupts the domestic industry entirely. So the net result won't be more jobs for Americans at the expense of foreigners.
    A non-trivial portion of these jobs are not portable. There are around 500k illegal immigrants in NYC. I would wager that less than 10% of the jobs they fill are jobs that could be exported overseas. The majority that I know of work as barbacks, delivery people, maids, porters, cooks, etc.
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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The government can't replace private sector cash flow. The past two years and over a trillion dollars has proven that.
    Government spending cannot force businesses to reinvest. However, government spending can prevent businesses from having to close. For example, consider unemployment benefits.

    If 8 million people watched their incomes go from a positive number to zero, their consumption expenditures will then become completely dependent on their level of savings. Yet if they are heavily in debt (as is common in the US), liabilities will have a negative impact on personal consumption expenditures. Businesses that depend on their spending will then be negatively impacted.

    Unemployment benefits help keep local businesses afloat during tough economic times. The majority of all UI benefits are allocated to consumption.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is an argument against minimum wage, not just against kicking out illegal immigrants. If the minimum wage is so high that it would drive jobs overseas, then I'm open to a discussion on lowering it. I just think that Americans and illegals should be on an equal playing field when competing for these jobs.
    This ignores the nature of the job. Minimum wages only affect low skill aspects of the economy. Policies that support low skilled labor equilibria are a negative for long term growth outlooks given the earning potential of this demographic, and their particular cost of living differentials in comparison to low skilled laborers abroad. Lowering minimum wages increases the demand for low skilled labor, and is a comparative disadvantage for a post industrial economy.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But that doesn't really address "Protectionist's" point - in an imaginary world where we could actually kick the illegals out, that would go a long way toward reducing unemployment. A substantial portion of those jobs would be filled by legal citizens at higher wages, increasing taxable income and reducing unemployment.
    This assumes the demand for low skilled labor remains constant. America's strength is it's innovative take on increasing productivity, not policy applications that increase the demand for low skilled labor.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    This ignores the nature of the job. Minimum wages only affect low skill aspects of the economy. Policies that support low skilled labor equilibria are a negative for long term growth outlooks given the earning potential of this demographic, and their particular cost of living differentials in comparison to low skilled laborers abroad. Lowering minimum wages increases the demand for low skilled labor, and is a comparative disadvantage for a post industrial economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    This assumes the demand for low skilled labor remains constant. America's strength is it's innovative take on increasing productivity, not policy applications that increase the demand for low skilled labor.
    There are always going to be barbacks, delivery guys, maids, dog walkers, etc. Not too much room for productivity increases there. My argument is that if there are going to be people doing those jobs, it makes more sense for them to be earning whatever they earn above the table and in fair competition with other potential employees. A system where illegal immigrants work for $5/hour and pay no taxes while an unemployed American receives welfare checks because he can't take that job benefits no one (except for the owner and the consumers who might pay a penny less for their bud light lime.)
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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is an argument against minimum wage, not just against kicking out illegal immigrants. If the minimum wage is so high that it would drive jobs overseas, then I'm open to a discussion on lowering it. I just think that Americans and illegals should be on an equal playing field when competing for these jobs.
    It's not just the fact that we have minimum wage laws. It's more related to the fact that Americans, by choice, will not pick tomatoes at a low wage. Picking tomatoes in the hot sun sucks; no one's going to volunteer to do that if they can get a job at Wal-Mart that pays the same. So repealing minimum wage laws isn't going to have much of an impact on this. The real problem isn't that Americans aren't ALLOWED to pick tomatoes for $2 per hour. It's that they WON'T pick tomatoes for $2 per hour. And the American tomato industry would be uncompetitive if it had to pay its workers $12 per hour instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    A non-trivial portion of these jobs are not portable. There are around 500k illegal immigrants in NYC. I would wager that less than 10% of the jobs they fill are jobs that could be exported overseas. The majority that I know of work as barbacks, delivery people, maids, porters, cooks, etc.
    OK, so those jobs won't move elsewhere the same way that the tomato-picking jobs will...they'll just disappear entirely and/or cost the consumers more money.
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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's not just the fact that we have minimum wage laws. It's more related to the fact that Americans, by choice, will not pick tomatoes at a low wage. Picking tomatoes in the hot sun sucks; no one's going to volunteer to do that if they can get a job at Wal-Mart that pays the same. So repealing minimum wage laws isn't going to have much of an impact on this. The real problem isn't that Americans aren't ALLOWED to pick tomatoes for $2 per hour. It's that they WON'T pick tomatoes for $2 per hour. And the American tomato industry would be uncompetitive if it had to pay its workers $12 per hour instead.



    OK, so those jobs won't move elsewhere the same way that the tomato-picking jobs will...they'll just disappear entirely and/or cost the consumers more money.
    Neither of those things are likely to happen to a significant degree. For business owners who can't afford to pay a proper American wage, yes, they'll drop out. So what ? If they couldn't pay a proper wage, they shouldn't be in business in the first place. I say to all those employers, go out and do the same thing that all the rest of us who cant afford to run a business do. Get a job.
    As for the costing the consumers more money, standard Microeconomics tells us when prices go up, sales (and business income) goes down. Business owners cannot raise prices in response to deportation of illegal aliens, raise in minimum wage, or any other increase in our costs. If we do we lose even more money, not gain.
    Actually, we have nothing to say about the price of our product. We don't determine it. it comes from the market. It is the "market price" (ie. the highest price we can charge without suffering losses from reduced sales). > Ye old bell-shaped curve.
    In most cases, business owners actually do quite well after wages go up, due to the increase in disposeable income, and thereby increase in sales. Toughest thing in business is when you're selling a product for $500, and you ask the caller how much he can afford to put down, and he says "Uh 10 bucks". For businesses whose wages are already high, this increase in sales is pure gain. Same thing for businesses where all the workers are paid by commission (as in auto and other sales).
    Last edited by Protectionist; 11-28-10 at 11:55 AM.

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This is an argument against minimum wage, not just against kicking out illegal immigrants. If the minimum wage is so high that it would drive jobs overseas, then I'm open to a discussion on lowering it. I just think that Americans and illegals should be on an equal playing field when competing for these jobs.



    A non-trivial portion of these jobs are not portable. There are around 500k illegal immigrants in NYC. I would wager that less than 10% of the jobs they fill are jobs that could be exported overseas. The majority that I know of work as barbacks, delivery people, maids, porters, cooks, etc.
    Almost all these illegal alien jobs are non-portable. They (landscaping, construction, janitorial, hotels, etc) are "Domestic Outsourcing" (ie. that part of the workforce where the jobs can only be done INSIDE the country). If they could be done outside the country, they would be.

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    Re: U.S. Voters Prefer Job Creation Over Deficit Cuts, Poll Shows

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I think so. That data is coming from new private sector jobs.



    That is a good point.



    The way the unemployment number is calculated. As I understand it, the numbers now include those formerly searching and who left searching and have now restarted searching for jobs. The real question has U6 changed?



    Eh. Colbert showed that the jobs illegals do America's won't. Furthermore, most of those work visas as for jobs we can't fill. Highly skilled worker visas are not cheap and firms would rather hire a American then have to issue one of those. The paperwork ALONE for a skilled worker visa and fees are pretty high. The reason we issue so many is we don't have the people here for those jobs.
    Looks like Colbert didn't do his homework. Center for Immigration Studies reported some years ago that of over 450 occupations, immigrants were in the majority in practically none. As for visas for skilled jobs, the Director of the National Society of Black Engineers said that when you have a labor shortage, wages goes up. He's right. But wages for engineers have been plummeting. Why ?
    Simple answer - domestic outsourcing with work visas (hiring cheap, foreign labor). This isn't happening because of a labor shortage. It's happening because of greed - employers maximizing profits any traitorous way they can.
    Last edited by Protectionist; 11-28-10 at 12:13 PM.

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