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Thread: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

  1. #21
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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's why I put more stock in results, than I do any kind of poll.
    Because you don't know squat about statistics?

    That is actually a good choice. If you don't know anything about statistics, it is better to discount them entirely because they are easy to manipulate and you will be easily fooled if you don't know what questions to ask.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-12-10 at 08:53 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    These two posts are representative of a much larger issue that plagues this country: a lack of ability in discerning good information from bad.

    Take NP's post. He says he "proved" that 95% of the USMC is against gays serving openly. Where did his information come from?

    A single officer asking for a "show of hands" in a single town-hall meeting. Why is this a bad method of information gathering?
    - Not at all detailed. (single vague question)
    - Not at all accurate. (raising hands? I doubt he even counted, just "estimated")
    - Tiny sample size (one group of marines)
    - Most importantly, utterly severe "peer pressure" influence. I can't stress this enough. You have a commanding officer, whose opinion is already well known, "asking" what the marines think. This is the military. Your opinion is that which your superior assigns to you. Next, this is an organization that does everything it can to stamp out individualism, and it's probably the most macho group of men on the face of this planet. An anonymous survey and a public one would probably yield drastically different results.

    You can't compare this to an anonymous, scientificly-minded survey.

    Which brings me to apdst. You don't survey 100% of a group, because that's prohibitively time consuming and unnecessary. A good enough sample size is close enough. There have been some leaked, preliminary numbers of what the pentagon has been doing so far, and they indicate a drastically different result. Since those are non-official, preliminary figures they aren't exactly solid, but this 95% number has zero credibility, especially given the fact that among the general population the support for allowing gays to serve openly is nearly 80%. The USMC being that far off of the general population is essentially impossible.
    good information = something I agree with.

    bad information = something I don't agree with.

    Which brings me to apdst. You don't survey 100% of a group, because that's prohibitively time consuming and unnecessary.
    Well, how about in this case, we do poll 100% of our service members and go with the results, no matter what they are? Or, are you afraid of how that might turn out?


    A good enough sample size is close enough. There have been some leaked, preliminary numbers of what the pentagon has been doing so far, and they indicate a drastically different result. Since those are non-official, preliminary figures they aren't exactly solid, but this 95% number has zero credibility, especially given the fact that among the general population the support for allowing gays to serve openly is nearly 80%. The USMC being that far off of the general population is essentially impossible.
    I bet it wouldn't be good enough, if you didn't like that outcome.

    What if that other 95% of our service members are 80% homophobes? Then what? Will it be time to resort to the, "they can follow orders, or get the **** out", argument?
    Last edited by apdst; 11-12-10 at 08:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    good information = something I agree with.

    bad information = something I don't agree with.
    Pot, kettle, etc.



    Well, how about in this case, we do poll 100% of our service members and go with the results, no matter what they are? Or, are you afraid of how that might turn out?
    No, not afraid at all. It honestly doesn't make a difference to me whether or not a majority of troops support it. Majority vote is not my measuring stick for what is right and wrong.


    I bet it wouldn't be good enough, if you didn't like that outcome.

    What if that other 95% of our service members are 80% homophobes? Then what? Will it be time to resort to the, "they can follow orders, or get the **** out", argument?
    How can you be 80% homophobe?

    Anyway, "follow orders or get the **** out" is pretty much the core principle on which the military rests, don't you think?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Pot, kettle, etc.






    No, not afraid at all. It honestly doesn't make a difference to me whether or not a majority of troops support it. Majority vote is not my measuring stick for what is right and wrong.
    I bet it would be a measuring stick for what's right and what's wrong, if an overwhelming majority of that 100% approved of the abolition of DADT.






    Anyway, "follow orders or get the **** out" is pretty much the core principle on which the military rests, don't you think?
    Actually, it's not, but I don't expect you to know that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    obama has stated time and again his preference for the courts NOT to do this, his doj has argued (sometimes rather grotesquely) against gay rights in the fields of dadt and gay marriage

    the disposition of our supreme court appears clear

    if obama were to have his druthers, he'd want this thing to move legislatively

    well, if you think about it, after january congress is closed to him on this heartfelt topic

    that is, he and ms nancy better move FAST

    ie, lame duck

    you need to know---if you're not feeling sold out by this promiser incompetent, the national leaders of your movement, the pros (who are far more relevant, ie, powerful, than any collection of chatroomers) are furious

    obama's a sell out, he plays constituencies

    this is just the latest

    sorry

    stay up

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I bet it would be a measuring stick for what's right and what's wrong, if an overwhelming majority of that 100% approved of the abolition of DADT.
    Given that the common argument against courts overturning gay marriage bans is it goes "against the will of the people" it is just fun to argue that 70-80% of Americans do not support DADT and 70% of troops think repealing the ban will have no effect. Then you get to look at the homophobes who chirp about "will of the people" and ask them how they feel about that positon given the opposition to DADT. Logically, a majority vote still does not mean right or wrong, but emotionally, its quite cathartic to rub the homophobe's noses in their "will of the people" argument.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    If you thought I called you a liar, I apologize for that. However, what I thought I said was that you were pulling figures out of your ass. In either event, I think an argument could be made for either position. Sure the Commandant made the claim, but it seems like he was pulling the figures out of his ass and it is not supported by the findings of the Pentagon study.

    Now....as for your changing tune.....Are you still ok with it as long as the military is? or are you going to be singing a different tune?
    Now your calling the Commandant of the MC a liar.....I guess in your mind anyone who disagrees with you is a liar...............Sad,,,,Oh and thanks for the apology, its so much fun to prove you wrong...
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Now your calling the Commandant of the MC a liar.....I guess in your mind anyone who disagrees with you is a liar...............Sad,,,,Oh and thanks for the apology, its so much fun to prove you wrong...
    Nobody is calling him a liar. We are just saying he is incredibly ignorant about statistics.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Given that the common argument against courts overturning gay marriage bans is it goes "against the will of the people" it is just fun to argue that 70-80% of Americans do not support DADT and 70% of troops think repealing the ban will have no effect. Then you get to look at the homophobes who chirp about "will of the people" and ask them how they feel about that positon given the opposition to DADT. Logically, a majority vote still does not mean right or wrong, but emotionally, its quite cathartic to rub the homophobe's noses in their "will of the people" argument.
    But, those numbers aren't accurate. Are they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Supreme Court: "Don't Ask Don't Tell" OK during appeal.

    tell it to nancy, tell it to reid

    tell em to hurry!

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