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Thread: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The military doesn't have a choice. The National Defense Authorization Act passed by Congress in 1993 requires that the military kick out gays, the "Don't Ask" part is the only part that Clinton added through a Defense Directive.
    Which defines the burden. The point was that Obama went against the Pentagon which merely tried to do what he promised to do on his campaign trail. As for choice, review the numbers since 9/11. Did gays just dissapear in the "troop" branches or did parts of the military make a choice? Though not a Washington choice, the result was the same. The brick wall continues to be Washington.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-11-10 at 10:06 PM.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Which defines the burden. The point was that Obama went against the Pentagon which merely tried to do what he promised to do on his campaign trail. As for choice, review the numbers since 9/11. Did gays just dissapear in the "troop" branches or did parts of the military make a choice? Though not a Washington choice, the result was the same. The brick wall continues to be Washington.
    How did he go against the Pentagon? The Pentagon was ordered by a federal court to stop the ban.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The military doesn't have a choice. The National Defense Authorization Act passed by Congress in 1993 requires that the military kick out gays, the "Don't Ask" part is the only part that Clinton added through a Defense Directive.
    Actually, the ban on gays was implemented by Defense Directive 1334, under Reagan.

    You might want to be careful, it almost sounds like you're defending DADT.



    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    How did he go against the Pentagon? The Pentagon was ordered by a federal court to stop the ban.
    A Federal court ordered the Pentagon to stop enforcing DADT. The ban on gays is still in effect. The failure of the DADT abolitionists to realize the difference isn't going to result in a happy ending with this deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    I agree with others that they need to just get it done. With Gates for it, and the judicial system seemingly ready to roll out the red carpet ..... it all was a matter of time anyway. I think things will adjust OK in the units. Gays will never be warmly welcomed in the higher testosterone outfits, and those situations will find their own equilibrium which will never be favorable to the gays. I have no problem with that, as that's the way things are wired. DADT will be replaced with various versions of STFU is all.

    I served for seven years with the 82nd. Combat Infantry. I am not saying that I like this, but it is how things are going to be. My younger brother is gay, and I love him to death. Joining the military never crossed his mind, and he knows it would have been a real bad fit. So he became a left-leaning attorney

    Adapt, and move on.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    AFP: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    As some of you may have recalled, Marine General John Amos, the new top Marine commander, argued that any changes could hurt the Marine corpsí effectiveness. He cited that 95% of Marines were worried about the repeal of the ban against openly gay soldier based on show of hands at open town hall style meetings

    To recap, the DADT policy has been found...

    -By a federal court to be unconstitutional in how it is enforced
    -By a federal court to endanger national security as a resulting of losing vital units
    -To be opposed by 70-80% of Americans
    -To be irrelevant to most troops

    Furthermore, the December lame duck session of Congress will likely be the last chance that the policy will be repealed despite all these overwhelming factors against it. Once Republicans take control of the House next year, it will be at least another 2 years before the policy can be repealed. Republicans have an enormous incentive to make sure this policy is not repealed because it would likely mean that Obama would lose many of his gay constituents and financial backers and would find himself considerably worse off come 2012. It also speaks of the mountain gay rights activists have to climb when they cannot get such a policy repealed despite having a Democratically controlled Presidency and Congress for 2 years.
    I hope you realize that gay rights mean exactly dick when it comes to national defense. If the military needs to ban women, married soldiers, left-handers, whatever, it's all good.

    I personally strongly support gays serving openly, but a General is concerned about 'good order and discipline' and your response is "ZOMG teh haz RIGHTS lolkthxby" (yes, that is an accurate summery of your OP), that's bull****.

    Try addressing the General's concerns instead of ignoring them and going of in your own direction.
    Last edited by Jerry; 11-11-10 at 11:21 PM.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Gays will never be warmly welcomed in the higher testosterone outfits, and those situations will find their own equilibrium which will never be favorable to the gays.
    I dunno. I think what people envision of gay men is that we are some group of queens, fairies, and gym bunnies. There are plenty of gay men who are indistinguishable from heterosexuals who will probably do just fine in those units because they aren't likely to be very expressive about their sexuality and are quite capable of getting the job done.

    And all the gym bunnies can adapt by coming over to my house.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I hope you realize that gay rights mean exactly dick when it comes to national defense. If the military needs to ban women, married soldiers, left-ganders, whatever, it's all good.

    I personally strongly support gays serving openly, but a General is concerned about 'good order and discipline' and your response is "ZOMG teh haz RIGHTS lolkthxby" (yes, that is an accurate summery of your OP), that's bull****.

    Try addressing the General's concerns instead of ignoring them and going of in your own direction.
    His concerns are based on something that is actually taught to Marines and soldiers and even other servicemembers. Something that is being taught to service members with absolutely no proof to back it up. In fact, all evidence contradict such teachings. If you teach something like this to people who are expected to believe and trust their upper enlisted and brass, then many of them eventually believe it themselves. Add to this an already present bias against gays and/or beliefs that gay men are somehow less manly, then you are going to get guys who actually believe that openly gay men (most guys could care less about gay women serving openly) will cause problems. The only way to fight such biases and false teachings is to actually prove to them that there are no problems with gays serving openly.
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I dunno. I think what people envision of gay men is that we are some group of queens, fairies, and gym bunnies. There are plenty of gay men who are indistinguishable from heterosexuals who will probably do just fine in those units because they aren't likely to be very expressive about their sexuality and are quite capable of getting the job done.

    And all the gym bunnies can adapt by coming over to my house.
    ohhhhhhh, now I get it! It is all about, "I'm gay and in your face".

    Why am I not surprised.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I personally strongly support gays serving openly, but a General is concerned about 'good order and discipline' and your response is "ZOMG teh haz RIGHTS lolkthxby" (yes, that is an accurate summery of your OP), that's bull****.
    That was incredibly irresponsible remark for him to make. He based his argument on show of hands at town hall style meetings. Every other commander has said that we need to wait until the December study.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    "I'm gay and in your face".


    Can't get over the prejudice, can ya?

    For your information I have seriously considered service but my family has been against it because of that policy.

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