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Thread: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

  1. #111
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It's about serving your country, not about being out of the closet. If you're no more dedicated than that, then you should definitely choose to stay out of the service.

    Your hubby isn't going to be out there on the battlefield with you.
    I'm not really going to take any advice from a guy who wants an outright ban against gays.

    The point is that I still want a family to come home to and I don't think it is fair that I have to choose between having a family and serving my country.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, because of that, seniro NCO's teach the soldiers in their charge to sniff out gays and expose them?

    Again, I never received that directive during my 12 years. Nor, did I issue any such directive as a senior NCO. I doubt very seriously, that you'll find anyone that did.

    What the hell do I know. Right?
    No. I never said that they were being taught to sniff out anyone. What is being taught is that gay personnel and/or openly gay personnel will be detrimental to unit cohesion, morale, and/or discipline.

    The difference is that you now have guys who, while they may be willing to abide by DADT and accept that as long as a gay guy doesn't say he is gay, then he is an okay soldier. However, if a gay guy is allowed to say he is gay without any potential consequences, such as discharge, then problems will develop. This is especially true in units that don't have women.

    And it isn't just those people in the guys command that will teach these things to soldiers. It is also upper brass, such as that Marine Corps Commandant, who will make such comments as public comments or respected military veterans who are publicly known, such as Sen. McCain, although they have no proof that such conduct will hurt morale, discipline or unit cohesion. They can believe that it is so, but it is not proof. And such beliefs would be based on biases and false stereotypes. Those biases and false stereotypes should be what are addressed and changed to preempt such issues.

    Some of the others who might teach such things to servicemembers could be family members and/or respected family friends who have these false ideas.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #113
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, because of that, seniro NCO's teach the soldiers in their charge to sniff out gays and expose them?

    Again, I never received that directive during my 12 years. Nor, did I issue any such directive as a senior NCO. I doubt very seriously, that you'll find anyone that did.

    What the hell do I know. Right?
    Agree with you on this. The military at every level, except a couple of top ones it would seem, have other fish-to-fry. First and foremost, as mentioned by others, its about whether or not you carry your weight.

  4. #114
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I'm not really going to take any advice from a guy who wants an outright ban against gays.
    Wow! I never said that. How dense are you?

    The point is that I still want a family to come home to and I don't think it is fair that I have to choose between having a family and serving my country.
    Well, any family that won't be there for you when you come, isn't worth coming home to.

    A hard reality that you need to learn to accept: you don't get to choose your relatives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    And seriously if you argument against DADT is only based on you don't want people being smug to you than for God's sake grow a spine.
    That is a very good point. I don't think apdst has provided any decent argument for why he wants an outright ban aside that for some strange and completely unsubstantiated reason he believes that gays will flout their sexuality.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    I've got a question for Apdst which relates directly to my service.

    As you know I'm about half way through officer BOLC and I just finished an introduction to convoy operations. My instructor was a US Army Captain. Now what if he happened to be gay and was discovered to be gay in the middle of this training. Now keep in mind that I have to complete this training by Feb and report by March to Korea, there's no time to delay graduation simply because something had to be cut from training or shortened for whatever reason. We both know the Army never does that.

    What do you think is more important to national security? Not being taught by a gay instructor, or knowing how to run a successful convoy in Korea, where I'm going in March, or perhaps Afghanistan later after that? Of course this isn't the only class on this topic and I will be getting on the job training, however it certainly has to be argued that not receiving this training will diminish my capacity as an officer.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, any family that won't be there for you when you come, isn't worth coming home to.

    A hard reality that you need to learn to accept: you don't get to choose your relatives.
    I'm not talking about my relatives. I'm talking about any future family I form. A family with a husband and kids.

    I can't form such a family if I have to serve in the closet.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-12-10 at 12:14 AM.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. I never said that they were being taught to sniff out anyone. What is being taught is that gay personnel and/or openly gay personnel will be detrimental to unit cohesion, morale, and/or discipline.

    The difference is that you now have guys who, while they may be willing to abide by DADT and accept that as long as a gay guy doesn't say he is gay, then he is an okay soldier. However, if a gay guy is allowed to say he is gay without any potential consequences, such as discharge, then problems will develop. This is especially true in units that don't have women.

    And it isn't just those people in the guys command that will teach these things to soldiers. It is also upper brass, such as that Marine Corps Commandant, who will make such comments as public comments or respected military veterans who are publicly known, such as Sen. McCain, although they have no proof that such conduct will hurt morale, discipline or unit cohesion. They can believe that it is so, but it is not proof. And such beliefs would be based on biases and false stereotypes. Those biases and false stereotypes should be what are addressed and changed to preempt such issues.

    Some of the others who might teach such things to servicemembers could be family members and/or respected family friends who have these false ideas.
    Never was taught that, either. Wanna try again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #119
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I'm not talking about my relatives. I'm talking about any future family I form. A family with a husband and kids.
    The same thing applies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #120
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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Never was taught that, either. Wanna try again?
    Then why do you believe what you do? What lead you to believe that gays serving openly would cause issues?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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