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Thread: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post


    Can't get over the prejudice, can ya?

    For your information I have seriously considered service but my family has been against it because of that policy.
    Well, if you're not man enough to make the decision, for yourself, then the service certainly isn't the place for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    His concerns are based on something that is actually taught to Marines and soldiers and even other servicemembers. Something that is being taught to service members with absolutely no proof to back it up. In fact, all evidence contradict such teachings. If you teach something like this to people who are expected to believe and trust their upper enlisted and brass, then many of them eventually believe it themselves. Add to this an already present bias against gays and/or beliefs that gay men are somehow less manly, then you are going to get guys who actually believe that openly gay men (most guys could care less about gay women serving openly) will cause problems. The only way to fight such biases and false teachings is to actually prove to them that there are no problems with gays serving openly.
    No such anti-gay bias is being taught in the militery.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I dunno. I think what people envision of gay men is that we are some group of queens, fairies, and gym bunnies. There are plenty of gay men who are indistinguishable from heterosexuals who will probably do just fine in those units because they aren't likely to be very expressive about their sexuality and are quite capable of getting the job done.

    And all the gym bunnies can adapt by coming over to my house.
    We agree, and your views are consistent with what I said. The smartest way to exist as a gay in these units is to be low key about it. Do your job, earn the respect of your fellows soldiers that you got their back, and move on.

    What I meant to convey was that, regardless of the law and policies, basic small team male dynamics will set the rules by which things are OK, or meet resistence. To flaunt one's gayness, especially in the more serious units, will get a low-level but thorough smackdown real quick. In the end, the basic rules will still be the same: either you got my back, in which case I will allow you the honor, or you don't, in which case you will be made to go somewhere else, easy way or the hard way, but you will be able to cover my back or you will not stay here.

    Here's the way it is in male Basic. Discussions about whether eating putang is good or not are OK, and often break on racial lines. Discussions about whether it is better to eat putang or suck wang will not happen in the male units. Not for a minute.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 11-11-10 at 11:38 PM.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Well, if you're not man enough to make the decision, for yourself, then the service certainly isn't the place for you.
    Yeah because real men do not honor the wishes of their family.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    ohhhhhhh, now I get it! It is all about, "I'm gay and in your face".

    Why am I not surprised.
    You think gay people want to serve openly just so they can brag about it? Or just because they're all jerks who just want to go up to people who don't want them there and rub it in their face?
    You could make a similar argument about black people wanting to vote, its just cause they want to elect black people just to show they can to whites, and for no other reason besides spite.
    Are you ever going to show any facts or evidence to back up what you say?

    Lastly, this argument you have about extremists in the service is already happening according to your definition of what is an extremist. Namely the thousands of Muslim service members, you have yourself on many many many occasions called Islam extremist by its very doctrine. Therefore naturally those who follow an extremist doctrine are extremists themselves.

    So if you truly believe Muslims are all extremists, than you've invalidated your own ridiculous argument already being allowing Muslims, ie "extremists" in your view, to serve openly has not destroyed the military.

    See what I did there?
    Last edited by Wiseone; 11-11-10 at 11:41 PM.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Yeah because real men do not honor the wishes of their family.
    Real men make their own decisions, based on their own wishes. If you were wishing to do something illegal, or immoral, you might have a point.

    A family that trully cares about it's members, supports their decisions, even if they disagree with those decisions.

    When my kids come of age and want to join the service, I will support that decision 100%. When they choose not to join the service, because they don't believe that it's for them, then I'll support that decision 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No such anti-gay bias is being taught in the militery.
    It's not officially taught, like in a class room setting type situation. But it is taught in that the older or more experienced personnel will tell this to those junior personnel or respected military personnel will say such things in public and on public record. It only takes a quick look on this board, in threads like this where the phrase "allowing gays to serve openly will negatively impact unit morale, cohesion and/or discipline" or some variation of this phrase that is very similar to it are used often, especially by some of the more senior military personnel or older veterans. This is the phrase that is repeated over and over. Yet no one has any actual proof that this will happen. So why this phrase if they aren't taught it?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    We agree, and your views are consistent with what I said. The smartest way to exist as a gay in these units is to be low key about it. Do your job, earn the respect of your fellows soldiers that you got their back, and move on.

    What I meant to convey was that, regardless of the law and policies, basic small team male dynamics will set the rules by which things are OK, or meet resistence. To flaunt one's gayness, especially in the more serious units, will get a low-level but thorough smackdown real quick. In tthe end, the basic rules will still be the same: either you got my back, in which case I will allow you the honor, or you don't, in which case you will be made to go somewhere else, easy way or the hard way, but you will be able to cover my back or you will not stay here.
    There were 2 open gays in my BCT company. They were offered a general discharge, declined it, and it wasn't a problem. One of them was in my platoon, it wasn't a problem. Sorry, Navy, he wasn't trying to rape us in our sleep.

    Your typical runt and platoon ****-up is a far greater problem (and has more to fear from his buddies) than does your typical gay man who enlists. It's just not a big deal.

    Now, people like MSgt come on and start talking about tight fire teams; everyone needs to listen to those concerns. Romantic feelings can **** up a fire team and get people killed (which is why we shouldn't seek co-ed fireteams).

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It's not officially taught, like in a class room setting type situation. But it is taught in that the older or more experienced personnel will tell this to those junior personnel or respected military personnel will say such things in public and on public record. It only takes a quick look on this board, in threads like this where the phrase "allowing gays to serve openly will negatively impact unit morale, cohesion and/or discipline" or some variation of this phrase that is very similar to it are used often, especially by some of the more senior military personnel or older veterans. This is the phrase that is repeated over and over. Yet no one has any actual proof that this will happen. So why this phrase if they aren't taught it?
    Uh, not sure how long ago you went to BCT, but no such thing existed at Fort Benning this summer.

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    Re: Ending US military gay ban 'won't harm war effort'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    You think gay people want to serve openly just so they can brag about it? Or just because they're all jerks who just want to go up to people who don't want them there and rub it in their face?

    You could make a similar arguement about black people wanting to vote, its just cause they want to elect black people just to show they can to whites, and for no other reason besides spite.

    Are you ever going to show any facts or evidence to back up what you say?

    No, but I think that that is why DADT abolitionists are so atimate about gays serving openly.

    Whyelse would they be sooooo opposed to lifting the ban and keeping DADT in place? They're not content with gays just being able to serve in the military, they want it flaunted in everyone's face, that gays are serving in the military.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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