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Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

A war crime is a war crime. Torture is torture. Perjury is perjury.

If it is a war crime our government would not expose them consent or not.

I feel like we're going round and round. A war crime is indeed a war crime, and torture is indeed torture. I agree with you on both points. But water-boarding isn't torture if there is consent. Thus when water-boarding is performed on soldiers with their consent it is not the war crime of torture. Your argument is incoherent, zimmmer.
 
1. the act of compelling by force of authority

2. Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way.


3. Actual or threatened force for the purpose of compelling action by another person

4. Use of physical or moral force to compel a person to do something, or to abstain from doing something, thereby depriving that person of the exercise of free will.

5. to cause to do through pressure or necessity, by physical, moral or intellectual means

6. Forced or compelled into doing something, through fear, intimidation, and/or threats.

Utterly irrelevant. The law doesn't defer to Noah Webster's definition of the word. We are talking about the legal definition of coercion, not the vernacular definition.
 
Ultimately yes. And what's more, they are treated differently. They don't get the fully effort, or full effect. We do that with a lot things in preparation for what we might might face, a waterdown version so to speak. If you think any training you got was equal to the real thing, you're fooling yourself.

have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.
 
Utterly irrelevant. The law doesn't defer to Noah Webster's definition of the word. We are talking about the legal definition of coercion, not the vernacular definition.

so where is the actual legal definition and not your cherry picked segment? afraid to post it because it shows you are full of crap :shrug:
 
have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.

I don't know, I'm sure it's a horrible experience. Certainly not something I want to go through. But how do these things go down? Do you know you're actually in friendly territory and going through drills, or is it done in a way in which you don't know? Where maybe you feel you could really be in enemy hands? Because there's a big difference between the two scenarios. I'm sure that if someone randomly picked you up, put you in a jail somewhere where you are hard pressed for any legal representation or reasons for your incarceration, and then they began to waterboard you that perhaps the response curve would be different.
 
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have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.

And a medical condition is a way to stop, would that have been so with KSM? Or how about not holding up well? that too would have stopped. No so with those really going through it. Do you honestly believe we showed the same care for those we saw as enemies as we do those we're training?

So, yes, you can get them to quit, if you react strongly enough.
 
have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

Are you seriously trying to deny that trainees can wash out? Yet it happens all the time! You're just plain factually incorrect.
 
so where is the actual legal definition and not your cherry picked segment? afraid to post it because it shows you are full of crap :shrug:

It's been posted before a number of times in this very thread. Afraid to read it?

My mistake, forgot that we were talking about coercion, not torture. In that case, I've already posted just one page ago that the legal definition of coercion is compulsion by "force or threat of force." Societal pressure not to wash out of training is not legally considered coercive.
 
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It's been posted before a number of times in this very thread. Afraid to read it?

My mistake, forgot that we were talking about coercion, not torture. In that case, I've already posted just one page ago that the legal definition of coercion is compulsion by "force or threat of force."

apparently you can't read. you linked to a definition irrelevent to our discussion. got to it before the edit..so

link or post the entire definition...not just the bit you like in quotes. :roll:
 
Some more:

. . . The interrogation of detainees extends far beyond SERE experts’ mission — teaching airmen and other military members to resist harsh interrogation techniques, according to testimony by Col. Steven Kleinman, an Air Force intelligence officer and interrogator.

(snip)

“I told them this is illegal,” Kleinman said. “I ended up putting a stop to it.”

Kleinman also testified that using SERE methods for interrogations is inappropriate because the communist techniques they are based on were designed to generate propaganda, not intelligence.

Colonel: SERE tactics used on Iraqi detainees - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

While interrogation and teaching resistance to interrogation have much in common,
they are nonetheless profoundly different activities.

•Survival instructors operate in a domestic training environment and share both a language and culture with the students they teach. In contrast, interrogators are involved in worldwide operations and interact with foreign nationals across an often substantial cultural and linguistic divide.
•If questions arise about the student’s veracity during role-play, a survival
instructor need only call the student’s unit of assignment to verify the
information. Clearly, this is not an option for an interrogator for whom
detecting deception is a critical skill
•While interrogation role-play is limited in duration, frequency, and scope,
interrogations of custodial detainees may last hours and continue over a span
of months.

•The survival instructor’s focus is not on information but the performance of the student while the interrogator must doggedly pursue—and record—every detail of intelligence information a detainee possesses.

Senate Testimony: Col. Steven M. Kleinman
 
Are you seriously trying to deny that trainees can wash out? Yet it happens all the time! You're just plain factually incorrect.

duh, duh, duh... yes you can wash out of the training. you wash out because you fail at the event. but you cannot voluntarily quit the event once it starts. this training isn't like a freakin PT test where you can say "**** it" and start walking on the 2 mile run and fail. and unless you personally have ever been through it...you don;t have a clue. reading about it on the interwebz don't count.

the only way they will stop an event in SERE or any of the other survival type schools is if the trainees health/life is in danger. and FYI, they will also stop waterboarding a terrorist if his heath/life is in danger because you can't get any information from a dead man.
 
link or post the entire definition...not just the bit you like in quotes. :roll:

That's fair. The full definition is "Compulsion by force or threat of physical force."
 
duh, duh, duh... yes you can wash out of the training. you wash out because you fail at the event. but you cannot voluntarily quit the event once it starts.

Do they force a trainee to be water-boarded if he refuses?
 
duh, duh, duh... yes you can wash out of the training. you wash out because you fail at the event. but you cannot voluntarily quit the event once it starts. this training isn't like a freakin PT test where you can say "**** it" and start walking on the 2 mile run and fail. and unless you personally have ever been through it...you don;t have a clue. reading about it on the interwebz don't count.

the only way they will stop an event in SERE or any of the other survival type schools is if the trainees health/life is in danger. and FYI, they will also stop waterboarding a terrorist if his heath/life is in danger because you can't get any information from a dead man.

Different threshold and concern. Also the voluntary nature, and the assumption of saftey is different. Very different.
 
Different threshold and concern. Also the voluntary nature, and the assumption of saftey is different. Very different.

Boo, you post articles supporting your point of view and I post articles just like others that refute it. Where do we go from here? Doesn't make a lot of sense to continue to beat this to death since you aren't going to change my mind or others nor am I going to change yours.

If what Bush did was illegal he should have been prosecuted but wasn't. the rest of your argument is moot
 
It's hardly moot. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes.

If war crimes were committed then our Congress should have acted and didn't. Because Amnesia International makes wild claims doesn't make it true. How about you answering the question, why wasn't Bush Impeached?
 
Ultimately yes. And what's more, they are treated differently. They don't get the fully effort, or full effect. We do that with a lot things in preparation for what we might might face, a waterdown version so to speak. If you think any training you got was equal to the real thing, you're fooling yourself.




So hero, you who has ***not*** been through said trainig is telling someone who has been through said training about how it was?
 
If war crimes were committed then our Congress should have acted and didn't. Because Amnesia International makes wild claims doesn't make it true. How about you answering the question, why wasn't Bush Impeached?

Actually, it's proper to wait until Bush is out of office to prosecute him for war crimes. Prosecutions of sitting heads of state for war crimes are generally discouraged under international law.

Maybe Congress should have impeached Bush, maybe they shouldn't have. But new evidence has come to light in the form of a confession from Bush himself. That's more than enough to move on a war crimes prosecution.
 
If war crimes were committed then our Congress should have acted and didn't. Because Amnesia International makes wild claims doesn't make it true. How about you answering the question, why wasn't Bush Impeached?

Whats politically expedient always comes first.

Do you think any political party would risk the fallout for trying to impeach a president during a war, even if he was breaking the law?

**** no. Politics, plain and simple.
 
This old war veteran's memory is sound, hero. They made no mention of a "safe word".

Rev, let's be honest here. Are you trying to say that the training isn't voluntarily undertaken? That the trainees are forced into it? And I don't mean metaphorically forced, I mean gun-to-the-head kind of forced.
 
Actually, it's proper to wait until Bush is out of office to prosecute him for war crimes. Prosecutions of sitting heads of state for war crimes are generally discouraged under international law.

Maybe Congress should have impeached Bush, maybe they shouldn't have. But new evidence has come to light in the form of a confession from Bush himself. That's more than enough to move on a war crimes prosecution.

As I understand it from you, Torture is illegal, you call waterboarding torture thus illegal and a violation of international law. If that is the case the Congress had an obligation to act instead of waiting for Amnesia International to act and they didn't. Why? It may be proper to wait but it is never proper to let violations of international law skate. Bush didn't have to confess, Congress knew what Bush did and Congress was under the control of the Democrats from 2007-2008 and did nothing. Get over your BDS as it makes you look foolish.
 
If war crimes were committed then our Congress should have acted and didn't. Because Amnesia International makes wild claims doesn't make it true. How about you answering the question, why wasn't Bush Impeached?

Because the whole lot are a bunch of criminals. If the Democrats went after Bush for his crimes, the Republicans would return fire. The gig would be up. When everyone has something to lose, no one squeals.
 
Because the whole lot are a bunch of criminals. If the Democrats went after Bush for his crimes, the Republicans would return fire. The gig would be up. When everyone has something to lose, no one squeals.

Wrong, Democrats wanted the issue, not the trial. Too many Democrats on record supporting what Bush did.
 
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