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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You need more? How much more? What do you need to see? Because when it comes to taking the word of the nations leaders you seem to be just fine with it now that your ideological outlook is embodied in the WH?


    j-mac
    I don't take anyone's word j, regardless of party. That's really your way of doing things. I need what I awalys need, actual evidence and not just someone saying it is so. You should need the same.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I did, and, well, no, it doesn't. Nothing you wrote indicates whether liberaldom in general or just you needed convincing that useful information was obtained or if less coercive methods of interrogation would have been just as successful in obtaining information. In any case, as I already indicated, either instance would be engaging in a "fool's argument" because there is no way to prove the information could or could not have been obtained using other methods of interrogation. If you still want to go ahead and try to prove it could have, go ahead and knock yourself out. For my part, I'm prepared to move on and discuss other things, like my general impression the Obama Administration felt it had no overarching duty to convince anyone of anything:

    You're actually wrong. People have studied this for longer than we've been alive. People don't just guess, but instead have tested and measured and worked with all methods of interrogation. And across the board they report that methods other than toorture have always been more effective. Most of the literature reports that torture is best for getting confessions, regardless of guilt, something used more for propaganda than for information gathering.

    It would be better if you went to the library and got some books, but you could likely find some adequate reading on this with a google search.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't take anyone's word j, regardless of party. That's really your way of doing things. I need what I awalys need, actual evidence and not just someone saying it is so. You should need the same.

    Sure you do. We have all seen it before. You are not going to get your hands on "actual" intel so I guess you'll continue to be duped by the far left to make your decisions that are clearly biased.


    j-mac
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Sure you do. We have all seen it before. You are not going to get your hands on "actual" intel so I guess you'll continue to be duped by the far left to make your decisions that are clearly biased.


    j-mac
    Actually, you can get much of the NIE on line. And you can amass a lot of information if you look, and not rely on just what someone says. Of course, you have to look and be open to what you read, and hear. But when anyone says x is true, the question should be, "what is your evidence." And before you accept it, you should look at the evidence. And the rebuttals.

    It is you and yours who hide before "we can't know, so it was said it must be true." No one has presented any evidence that Cheney's claims is true, and what he has produced has proven false. Why doesn't that cause you to at least pause?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But when anyone says x is true, the question should be, "what is your evidence." And before you accept it, you should look at the evidence. And the rebuttals.
    So where's your evidence that before the CIA waterboarded KSM 183 times over the course of a month he would have been more forthcoming with softer methods of interrogation?
    Нава́льный 2018

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    So where's your evidence that before the CIA waterboarded KSM 183 times over the course of a month he would have been more forthcoming with softer methods of interrogation?
    As presented many times before, we know that the second wave Cheney spoke of was uncovered before KSM was even captured (this link was posted) and that we got that information without torture. That's evidence. We also have a lot of literature on torture and interrogation, and that literature overwhelming discusses the ineffective nature of torture, and the effectiveness of other methods. That's evidence. We can also point to the misinformation al Libi gave us under torture and how we used that misinformation in the argument for goign to war with Iraq. That too is evidence.

    A lot of evidence has been presented over the years, as this isn't the first time this discussion has come up. I still suggest the library is the best place for one to search, and there are many books written on this. And they really are better than a fictional TV show like 24 (an old friend Muley used to alwys point to that show as evidence).

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    inspector general of cia---after enhanced interrogations and 7.5 days of sleep deprivation, ksm became intel's "preeminent source on al qaeda"

    wapo's report: "ksm cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture march 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate"

    ksm revealed specific plans for attacks in saudi arabia, asia and the us

    "cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the cia and fbi went on to round up operatives both in the united states and abroad"

    "detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-qaeda deemed suitable for western operations"

    "according to the cia summary"

    "ksm was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said, including describing in 'considerable detail the traits and profiles' that al-qaeda sought in western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the us"

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2009082804015

    FACTS to be dismissed in 60 seconds of mindless narcissism
    Last edited by The Prof; 11-24-10 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    inspector general of cia---after enhanced interrogations and 7.5 days of sleep deprivation, ksm became intel's "preeminent source on al qaeda"

    wapo's report: "ksm cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture march 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate"

    ksm revealed specific plans for attacks in saudi arabia, asia and the us

    "cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the cia and fbi went on to round up operatives both in the united states and abroad"

    "detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-qaeda deemed suitable for western operations"

    "according to the cia summary"

    "ksm was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said, including describing in 'considerable detail the traits and profiles' that al-qaeda sought in western operatives and how the terrorist organization might conduct surveillance in the us"

    How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

    FACTS to be dismissed in 60 seconds of mindless narcissism
    Actually, as this is old, and well read and researched and discussed and gone over, it wasn't dismnissed in 60 seconds. A lot went into dismissing it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    they really are better than a fictional TV show like 24
    24?

    LOL!

    you think the inspector general reached his conclusions after watching primetime drama?
    Last edited by The Prof; 11-24-10 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    24?

    LOL!

    you think the inspector general reached his conclusions after watching primetime drama?
    I am worried about your reading skills. Read it again, and see if you can find your error.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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