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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    You didn't post a rebuttal. I gave you specific details about a torture method employed by Japanese, for which they were tried and convicted, that obviously contrasts with the method we are debating. You then said there was no contrast.

    La-la-la-la....
    And I gave you specific definition that water torture included all forms, including the euphmism of waterboarding. And as has already been pointed out, even the form used today was including in two of the examples.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    That's not true. Geneva Convention identiies combatants very specifically:

    Suicide bombers don't qualify. People masquerading as civilians don't qualify. People in uniform qualify.
    So would you argue that the solders who fought in our revolution weren't combatants? They wore plain clothes, and didn't identify themselves openly.

    And to many of the others who quoted me, don't put words in my mouth. Don't say "liberals say XYZ" and then dismiss me. I'm talking about a specific transgression by a specific group of people. I'll form my own opinion on everything else. If you think you can prove me wrong, do it. But back it up.

    Most of what I've heard in this thread is "screw them to save us", and weasel definitions to find loopholes permitting torture of people. I have yet to hear any of these torture proponents stand up and say "I am willing to torture people who MAY be guilty of a crime in order to extract information." News flash for you all. That's what happened. People who were not convicted of any crime in any court were being tortured. I try to avoid being all high and mighty about this, but do you idiots really not see that if it can happen to an accused terrorist with brown skin, it can happen to you, too? The only way to ensure that no innocent people are tortured is to torture no one.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So would you argue that the solders who fought in our revolution weren't combatants? They wore plain clothes, and didn't identify themselves openly.

    And to many of the others who quoted me, don't put words in my mouth. Don't say "liberals say XYZ" and then dismiss me. I'm talking about a specific transgression by a specific group of people. I'll form my own opinion on everything else. If you think you can prove me wrong, do it. But back it up.

    Most of what I've heard in this thread is "screw them to save us", and weasel definitions to find loopholes permitting torture of people. I have yet to hear any of these torture proponents stand up and say "I am willing to torture people who MAY be guilty of a crime in order to extract information." News flash for you all. That's what happened. People who were not convicted of any crime in any court were being tortured. I try to avoid being all high and mighty about this, but do you idiots really not see that if it can happen to an accused terrorist with brown skin, it can happen to you, too? The only way to ensure that no innocent people are tortured is to torture no one.
    Newsflash. I read this thread differently. I read it that we have posters who say that waterboarding falls under the legal definition of torture, and we have posters who say it doesn't. That difference of opinion is never going to be resolved here. And it won't be resolved in court either, because President Bush will not be prosecuted.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Good find. We shouldn't have signed it without a clearer definition of what constitutes torture. Severe pain and suffering....does waterboarding fall under that category? Subjective definitions always suck. UNCAT's definition is:
    That was Bill Clinton. He'd sign anything.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    It was left vaague in order to try and deter people from doing the type of rationalizing some are doing with water boarding. Little did they know it is almost impossible to stop people from trying to excuse almost anything.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    The civilian was strapped to a stretcher with his feet in the air and head towards the floor, and water was poured over his face, causing him to gasp for air until he agreed to talk. Asano is convicted and sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

    isn't this what we did?
    That's sounds pretty much like what we did. However, I don't believe that's the extent of what he did that constitutes torture for which he was convicted. Since I don't know the source of that quote, I'll post this again:
    Yokohama Reviews - Asano

    It's only a summary and simply includes the term "water torture". Some of the other cases I linked have quite a bit more detail and describe actual torture that goes far beyond the description you linked. Why his particular summary is missing some details, I have no idea...

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The Geneva Convention protects people in uniform and innocent civilians. It does not protect terrorists. If you believe the people held at Gitmo are innocent, not terrorists, then argue that point.

    As to having tortured innocent people, of course, we have. We've killed 'em, too. Women and children and all the rest. Such are the spoils of war. I'll say it again, because one can't say it too much:

    There is no country in the history of the world that has done more in wartime to protect the innocents. We're not perfect. But we're as close to that as any nation has ever gotten.
    those aren't called "the spoils of war"........they are called collateral damage.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    This was a civilian. Do you not see the difference?
    I thought it was ok to torture nonuniform combatants..

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Again, all of it si water torture.
    Yet this meaning is incorrect: As Wallach has pointed out in an op-ed (Washington Post, 11/4/07), “To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death.” He elaborated that the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted.

    Malcolm Nance, a former instructor at the U.S. Navy’s Advanced Terrorism, Abduction and Hostage Survival program who has taught American service members what to expect under torture, concurred with this assessment of “waterboarding” in an interview with Extra!: “There is nothing simulated about it.”

    U.S. Justice Department legal counsel John Yoo’s 2003 memo, which provided a legal justification for the use of “waterboarding,” has deservedly been rebuked by the media for having “redefined torture to justify repugnant, clearly illegal acts,” as one New York Times editorial (4/4/08) put it. Unfortunately, the same can be said of much of the news reporting on “waterboarding.”

    From Water Torture to ‘Waterboarding’

    A Visual History of Water-Based Tortures | waterboarding.org

    PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    those aren't called "the spoils of war"........they are called collateral damage.
    Another euphemism.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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