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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

    "All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.


    On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.

    Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR
    Yukio Asano was not charged with war crimes for "waterboarding". Here is the actual charge:
    beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward
    Yokohama Reviews - Asano

    On the solider in Viet Nam, I've found sites that said he was investigated and cleared, others say he was court martialed and discharged from the army. I haven't found any real info on that case, so it does not lend any credence to either side in my opinion.

    On the Japanese war crimes, this guy says 7 were convicted and executed for rape, murder, massacre, and starving POW's to death.
    Sorry, Paul Begala — You’re Still Wrong - By Mark Hemingway - The Corner - National Review Online

    These 4 guys were also convicted of crimes including "water torture":

    Yokohama Reviews - Sawamura

    Yokohama Reviews - Minemo

    Yokohama Reviews - Kita

    Yokohama Reviews - Hata

    It is also noteworthy that Japanese "water torture" appears to be materially different than waterboarding as used by the US recently:

    ...forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes...
    Another description of Japanese "water torture":
    A type of funnel, usually formed from a towel, was placed over the victim's mouth and nose. At the same time, a 5-gallon can was filled with water and usually urine and kerosine. The concoction was poured into the funnel, and the victim had to either swallow all 5 gallons of this mixture or drown.

    Having swallowed 5 gallons of this liquid, the victim's stomach would stretch and swell. The victim would then be bound, often with barbed wire, and the stomach would be struck, either with a rod of some sort or soldiers would even jump on it, depending on how the prisoner was bound. This pressure could easily cause the bloated stomach to burst. If not, the victim was then hanged by his ankles and the liquid would drain out through his mouth, risking drowning once again. The process could then be repeated.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    MaggieD, do you actually believe what he said? Do you actually believe that I don't care about the military and that I am bent on "destroying President Bush"?


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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Either they're enemy combatants and are thus prisoners of war, or the war is an which they're being taken prisoner in is an illegal war. Bush is a war criminal either way. Show me some explanation where a person who uses weapons in violent efforts conducted against citizens of a different country is not a combatant, and thus fall under prisoners of war. Rhetoric and bull**** employed by the administration drew that difference, in a highly illegal way.
    Non-uniformed enemy combatants have been treated differently for a long, long time. They guys hide among the general population, often using them as human shields. The point of treating them differently is an attempt to reduce collateral damage in war.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    Yukio Asano was not charged with war crimes for "waterboarding". Here is the actual charge:


    Yokohama Reviews - Asano
    Read what you quoted. Water torture is waterboarding. Just because there were other charges as well doesn't make the waterboarding charge disappear.

    On the solider in Viet Nam, I've found sites that said he was investigated and cleared, others say he was court martialed and discharged from the army. I haven't found any real info on that case, so it does not lend any credence to either side in my opinion.
    Clear would actually mean he didn't do it, not that that doing it was acceptable. Being investigated itself means he was investigated for doing something wrong, so I disagree with your conclusion. However, i've read or found nothing saying he was accquitted. Perhaps you could link that.

    On the Japanese war crimes, this guy says 7 were convicted and executed for rape, murder, massacre, and starving POW's to death.
    Sorry, Paul Begala — You’re Still Wrong - By Mark Hemingway - The Corner - National Review Online

    These 4 guys were also convicted of crimes including "water torture":

    Yokohama Reviews - Sawamura

    Yokohama Reviews - Minemo

    Yokohama Reviews - Kita

    Yokohama Reviews - Hata

    It is also noteworthy that Japanese "water torture" appears to be materially different than waterboarding as used by the US recently:
    No, it is not materially different. All forms of the water torture do exactly the same thing. I've seen this type of rationalizing before, but it is factually incorrect.

    Techniques using forcible drowning to extract information had hitherto been referred to as "water torture," "water treatment," "water cure" or simply "torture."[6][31] A UPI article in 1976 used the term 'water board' torture: "[U.S. Navy trainees] were strapped down and water poured into their mouths and noses until they lost consciousness... A Navy spokesman admitted use of the 'water board' torture... to 'convince each trainee that he won't be able to physically resist what an enemy would do to him.'"[6]

    Professor Darius Rejali of Reed College, author of Torture and Democracy (2007), speculates that the term waterboarding probably has its origin in the need for a euphemism. "There is a special vocabulary for torture. When people use tortures that are old, they rename them and alter them a wee bit. They invent slightly new words to mask the similarities. This creates an inside club, especially important in work where secrecy matters. Waterboarding is clearly a jailhouse joke. It refers to surfboarding"– a word found as early as 1929– "they are attaching somebody to a board and helping them surf. Torturers create names that are funny to them".[6]

    Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Another description of Japanese "water torture":
    Same torture under a different name. See the link above.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    MaggieD, do you actually believe what he said? Do you actually believe that I don't care about the military and that I am bent on "destroying President Bush"?

    I re-read the post and, well, check again. Sometimes one considers "part" and not the total.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I re-read the post and, well, check again. Sometimes one considers "part" and not the total.
    So which "part" are you agreeing with, exactly?

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Bush was told that Waterboarding wasn't torture and thus he authorized the waterboarding of 3 high valued leaders. Try to stay focused. Obama issued an executive order to make something that was already illegal, illegal? LOL, this really is a joke, right?
    And you buy that? History is quite clear. Sure, you can have lawyers give you cover, but that doesn't equal them being correct. And yes, it was already illegal. As noted in previous cases.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    the sickness here is that you believe your family members serving in iraq gives you some sort of magical power to proclaim what is and what is not torture. many of us had family members or friends in iraq or afghanistan, for that matter, vietnam, or ww2. so what?
    There is no magical power but there is actual caring for the military and those that served, not some trumped up claim that you care about our troops. All you and your ilk care about is destroying someone that you disagree with, someone that did absolutely nothing to you but keep you safe. I don't know why I bother but conservatives do actually care about your safety and conservatives don't really care how much you make or pay in taxes. You, on the other hand, make up issues and buy what you are told by people who really don't care about you at all.

    This entire thread is a waste of time and nothing is going to change my mind or yours apparently. I don't believe that waterboarding was torture thus illegal but even if it was I don't believe animals that cut off heads, blow up people, fly planes into buildings, and use civilians as human shields deserve protection under laws they don't even accept.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And you buy that? History is quite clear. Sure, you can have lawyers give you cover, but that doesn't equal them being correct. And yes, it was already illegal. As noted in previous cases.
    Yes, history is indeed clear, Barack Obama signed an executive order making waterboarding illegal. Why did he have to make something illegal that was already illegal? Hmmm, interesting.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yes, history is indeed clear, Barack Obama signed an executive order making waterboarding illegal. Why did he have to make something illegal that was already illegal? Hmmm, interesting.
    Bush allowed it. it was illegal. Obama made a clear statement.

    WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture . . . .

    Obama says waterboarding was torture

    he did not say, is now. He said was. When Bush did it, it was torture.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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