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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Commander Frank Wead, United States Navy:



    SERE Training of our own military includes (included?) waterboarding. (The D.O.D. will not comment on whether or not it is still using waterboarding in SERE training.)

    I see a few problems with indicting George Bush:

    #1 -- Is waterboarding torture? Congress was asked to legislate that it indeed was and declined to do so. Our own military uses waterboarding as a training technique.
    #2 -- Are terrorists protected by any treaties signed by the US outlawing torture? Or are they excluded?
    #3 -- If waterboarding of terrorist suspects was indeed illegal, why did President Obama issue an Executive Order banning its use?
    There's the number one problem with trying to prosecute anyone, for roughing up a captured terrorist. Per the Geneva Convention, terrorists are considered illegal combatants don't rate protection under the rules of war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I agree with you that it won't happen. But let's not be dishonest. Torturing was not protecting this country. We have more evidence that what we got from torture hurt this country than we do that it helped. Breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter how misguided ones beliefs are.
    What evidence do we have that torture hurt our country? And please don't include that it hurt our image. Don't care much about "image." Lives trump image.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I agree with you that it won't happen. But let's not be dishonest. Torturing was not protecting this country. We have more evidence that what we got from torture hurt this country than we do that it helped. Breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter how misguided ones beliefs are.
    How so?........
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How so?........
    Al Libi. He was tortured and gave false testimony concerning Saddam working with Al Qaeda. That was used in the NIE (though doubted by the CIA) and was part of making the case for war, a needless war. It was misinformation. So far, nearly everything presented by the Bush administration as evidence of the effectiness of torture was either flase like with al Libi, something we already knew like with KSM, or silly like the fellow wanting to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blow torch.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What evidence do we have that torture hurt our country? And please don't include that it hurt our image. Don't care much about "image." Lives trump image.
    See above. al Libi comes to mind.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Al Libi. He was tortured and gave false testimony concerning Saddam working with Al Qaeda. That was used in the NIE (though doubted by the CIA) and was part of making the case for war, a needless war. It was misinformation. So far, nearly everything presented by the Bush administration as evidence of the effectiness of torture was either flase like with al Libi, something we already knew like with KSM, or silly like the fellow wanting to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blow torch.
    That's a failure of the interrogators, not the method of gathering the information.

    Ultimately, you don't have the security clearance to know what was gained from terrorists that we leaned on. The examples you listed are just the instances that were reported in the lame-stream media, to undermine Bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's a failure of the interrogators, not the method of gathering the information.

    Ultimately, you don't have the security clearance to know what was gained from terrorists that we leaned on. The examples you listed are just the instances that were reported in the lame-stream media, to undermine Bush.
    It's both. When you use a method that will make even the innocent tell you what you want to hear, the method is not an effective one. And one does not have to be present to assess the information provided. Lack of information or evidence you give you more pause than not knowing everything should give anyone else.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Al Libi. He was tortured and gave false testimony concerning Saddam working with Al Qaeda. That was used in the NIE (though doubted by the CIA) and was part of making the case for war, a needless war. It was misinformation. So far, nearly everything presented by the Bush administration as evidence of the effectiness of torture was either flase like with al Libi, something we already knew like with KSM, or silly like the fellow wanting to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blow torch.
    Al Libi was not waterboarded.

    Al-Libi recanted his story in February 2004, when he was returned to the CIA’s custody, and explained, as Newsweek described it, that he told his debriefers that “he initially told his interrogators that he ‘knew nothing’ about ties between Baghdad and Osama bin Laden and he ‘had difficulty even coming up with a story’ about a relationship between the two.” The Newsweek report explained that “his answers displeased his interrogators — who then apparently subjected him to the mock burial. As al-Libi recounted, he was stuffed into a box less than 20 inches high. When the box was opened 17 hours later, al-Libi said he was given one final opportunity to ‘tell the truth.’ He was knocked to the floor and ‘punched for 15 minutes.’ It was only then that, al-Libi said, he made up the story about Iraqi weapons training.”
    Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi Has Died In A Libyan Prison | Andy Worthington
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    I don't even know how to form a good response to such blatant and hateful bigotry.


    bigorty? What the hell are you talking about?



    As for amnesty international, they can suck a pole...
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Many experts will tell you that torture is not a reliable source of gathering information. People will just lie to make the pain stop, even admitting to crimes they didn't commit. They may even be totally innocent or not actually have the information you want.

    Waterboarding is torture. Period. We executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Americans, calling it torture and a war crime. Bush admitted to something America has deemed a war crime.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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