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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Not at all. I have reconsidered whether or not expanding on this would be a diversion from the topic. However, I would very much like to school you in where your misinterpreted thoughts about the all supreme power of the Federal government is totally wrong. Maybe one of the other forums.

    You also make mention that Bush should be prosecuted for waterboarding three individuals. I remember the AG Holder looking into this very thing concerning Bush's legal team, the ones who advised Bush that Waterboarding as we were doing it was in fact legal. He dropped the case, and would not prosecute anyone. Can you give us a reason why if it is so clear cut?


    j-mac
    Not prosecuting is not evidence of something being legal. There are a lot of reason not to prosecute. Most have to do with cost versus gain. While I personally wish he had, I'm not stupid enough to believe this wouldn't be hard on the country.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Well... yes it is.

    But is/was it justified at the time, under the circumstances?? That's the issue.

    Saying simulated drowning is not torture is just retarded.
    Well. No, it's not. Saying that we torture our own soldiers in training is just retarded.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    How about you put up the evidence with the "Bush lied" mantra that has been the whining of the left for the last 7-8 years. Otherwise, don't tell us "there's plenty of evidence" cause all we hear is the hypocritical whining of the left.

    Note in advance that you need to know first what a "lie" is, and second that we can likely quote Bill Clinton and a bunch of Dems saying the same damn thing before GB was President.

    So "Put up or shut up" for chrissakes. Otherwise, its just more liberal whine, and that got old a few years back.
    Plenty of evidence has been put up. You have to open your eyes to see it though.
    Last edited by Boo Radley; 11-15-10 at 12:27 PM.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Plenty of evidence has been put up. You have to open your eyes to see it though. :coffee




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    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    you need your pap in your
    Hadn't got my paper yet. Just have the coffee.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Plenty of evidence has been put up. You have to open your eyes to see it though.
    Why do you continue to buy the rhetoric of leftwingers with an agenda. Amnesia International should have more to deal with than 3 high value al Qaeda animals that were interrogated at GITMO. How about the human shields that al Qaeda uses, how about the cutting off of heads, how about flying planes into buildings killing innocent civilians, how about strapping bombs on their backs and blowing up market places?

    There is plenty of evidence on both sides regarding Waterboarding, the question is why do you buy the left's version and not the right? Why is there such passion for this issue if not just pure hatred for President Bush, all based upon ignorance?

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why do you continue to buy the rhetoric of leftwingers with an agenda. Amnesia International should have more to deal with than 3 high value al Qaeda animals that were interrogated at GITMO. How about the human shields that al Qaeda uses, how about the cutting off of heads, how about flying planes into buildings killing innocent civilians, how about strapping bombs on their backs and blowing up market places?

    There is plenty of evidence on both sides regarding Waterboarding, the question is why do you buy the left's version and not the right? Why is there such passion for this issue if not just pure hatred for President Bush, all based upon ignorance?
    Not rehtoric, fact. Read the intel. Leave out the doubted intell (which Bush didn't portray as doubted and thus a lie of ommission), and you have nothing to support Bush's claims of growing and gathering and links to al Qaeda. With no evidence to support hsi claim, there cannot be a reasonable argument that he believed what he said.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    The basis for waterboarding being a crime does not come from any statutes in American law. It comes from the Geneva Conventions' explicit ban on torture, which waterboarding clearly is, and in the Eighth Amendment, which bans the use of "cruel and unusual punishment", which waterboarding clearly is. Being president and violating the constitution is a crime against the country. Bush should be prosecuted for that, too. And for violating the terms of the Geneva Conventions about torture.

    I can't imagine how or why anyone would try to argue that waterboarding isn't torture, but I'll go about proving it just to satisfy them.

    The relevant portions of the Conventions are in Article 13, in Part 2 of the Third Convention.

    "Art 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

    Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

    Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

    Actions explicitly banned:

    1. Physical Mutilation
    2. Medical experiments
    3. Denial of medical treatment
    4. Acts of violence, intimidation, or insults
    5. Reprisal
    6. Disrespect for their persons and honor

    There are more in other articles, but 1, 4, and 6 illustrate my points. Waterboarding can easily cause permanent physical damage. Water inhalation can damage the lungs, oxygen deprivation can cause brain damage, and prisoners can DIE from it. Waterboarding is a violent practice, forcibly restraining a person in a painful and frightening position, and then commencing to drown them. The only reason that waterboarding is considered "simulated" drowning, is because they stop before the victim actually dies... and then start it all over. Terror and pain are the results of waterboarding. How the hell is this not torture!?

    For the constitutional provisions, an act of torture is a cruel punishment. There is no equivocation on that. It is a violation of the Eighth Amendment, and any government official who caused it to happen is guilty, both of breaking their oath of office to uphold the constitution, and of international law that the United States signed. Bush and his ilk are war criminals. And lest you think me biased, which many of you surely will, if we find out that Obama has done this, string him up, too. Same for Clinton. Same for ANYONE.

    Edit: To add to this, the opposition is often omitting the largest possible problem with torture. It is a method of interrogation. You use to find out what's going on. If you don't already know that a person has committed a crime, and you torture them in an attempt to find out, YOU MAY BE TORTURING AN INNOCENT PERSON. And that is unacceptable. Ever. Even in an attempt to save my life. Or the lives of my family.

    Which brings me to the question brought up in this thread. Would you torture someone who abducted your children. This is a Hollywood scenario, and does not, in any way, resemble real life. Terrorists are not kidnapping children, and domestic kidnappers are protected by the constitution. Also kidnappers are seldom, if ever, found separate from the abducted child, who is also usually long dead by the time anyone finds them or their kidnappers. Also this scenario assumes 100% certainty that you have the right guy.

    So yes, under these impossible circumstances, anyone would torture to protect their children. But real life is never like that. It's shades of grey. And erring towards violence and torture in unsure situations makes us monsters.
    Last edited by Paschendale; 11-15-10 at 12:59 PM.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The basis for waterboarding being a crime does not come from any statutes in American law. It comes from the Geneva Conventions' explicit ban on torture, which waterboarding clearly is, and in the Eighth Amendment, which bans the use of "cruel and unusual punishment", which waterboarding clearly is. Being president and violating the constitution is a crime against the country. Bush should be prosecuted for that, too. And for violating the terms of the Geneva Conventions about torture.

    I can't imagine how or why anyone would try to argue that waterboarding isn't torture, but I'll go about proving it just to satisfy them.

    The relevant portions of the Conventions are in Part 2 of the Third Convention.

    "Art 13. Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

    Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

    Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

    Art 14. Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour.

    Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men.

    Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires."

    Actions explicitly banned:

    1. Physical Mutilation
    2. Medical experiments
    3. Denial of medical treatment
    4. Acts of violence, intimidation, or insults
    5. Reprisal
    6. Disrespect for their persons and honor

    There are more, but 1, 4, and 6 illustrate my points. Waterboarding can easily cause permanent physical damage. Water inhalation can damage the lungs, oxygen deprivation can cause brain damage, and prisoners can DIE from it. Waterboarding is a violent practice, forcibly restraining a person in a painful and frightening position, and then commencing to drown them. The only reason that waterboarding is considered "simulated" drowning, is because they stop before the victim actually dies... and then start it all over. Terror and pain are the results of waterboarding. How the hell is this not torture!?

    For the constitutional provisions, an act of torture is a cruel punishment. There is no equivocation on that. It is a violation of the Eighth Amendment, and any government official who caused it to happen is guilty, both of breaking their oath of office to uphold the constitution, and of international law that the United States signed. Bush and his ilk are war criminals. And lest you think me biased, which many of you surely will, if we find out that Obama has done this, string him up, too. Same for Clinton. Same for ANYONE.

    Except for the tiny detail that the guys detained at GITMO, according to the GC's definition, are not POWs and therefore do not fall under the protection of the GC.

    Not saying that this makes it OK to "torture" them. You just can't use the GC to argue that such "torture" is illegal. simply that the framers did not have terrorist insurgents in mind when the GC was written.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Except for the tiny detail that the guys detained at GITMO, according to the GC's definition, are not POWs and therefore do not fall under the protection of the GC.

    Not saying that this makes it OK to "torture" them. You just can't use the GC to argue that such "torture" is illegal. simply that the framers did not have terrorist insurgents in mind when the GC was written.

    From Amensty International:

    The USA ratified the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (UNCAT) in 1994. Under UNCAT, in every case where there is evidence against a person of their having committed or attempted to commit torture, or of having committed acts which constitute complicity or participation in torture, the case must be submitted to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
    Failing to proceed with a prosecution on the basis that the accused held public office of any rank, or citing justifications based in “exceptional circumstances”, whether states of war or other public emergencies, is not permitted by UNCAT.
    US must begin criminal investigation of torture following Bush admission

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