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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Side note: Could it be any more obvious that you're getting your information about universal jurisdiction from wikipedia?



    Universal jurisdiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It's in wikipedia because it's well known. But personally, I'm getting my information from Kissinger himself.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You really want to know? Grotius, Vattel, Gentili, on down the line to Karl Llewellyn and Richard Posner have defined it as such. In short, everybody but a handful of neocons in the past decade. But perhaps most importantly to our discussion, Henry Billings Brown defined universal jurisdiction as such in the controlling Supreme Court case US v. The Ambrose Light. Look it up.
    I don't think you're understanding my point.

    Let's say that I come up with something called superduper universal jurisdiction. I believe that superduper universal jurisdiction allows me to prosecute you for daring to disagree with me on an internet message board. I hereby declare you an outlaw and demand that you appear before me to be sentenced to life in prison.


    Do you plan on showing up? Do you think I have the authority to do that? Why or why not?
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's only highly disputed in the United States, and even then the critics are people like Henry Kissinger, who is himself a war criminal. Take that with a grain of salt. Real legal scholars know there is no dispute about universal jurisdiction's applicability to war criminals.
    Oh, really . . .

    Give this list of "real legal scholars" and point to their body of work on the matter.



    Yes, there is. Universal jurisdiction allows a war criminal to be haled into court in any jurisdiction he can be found. A war crime is a crime against all humanity, hence all courts are appropriate venue, subject to their internally limited jurisdiction.
    So the theory goes . . . if claimed by a state.


    And nothing about the ICC's charter limits the scope of universal jurisdiction. QED
    You are very, very confused. An international body's jurisdiction comes exclusively from the agreements which create it. If it's not expressly given jurisdiction, it doesn't have it. "Well it doesn't say it can't" fails, and fails miserably.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't think you're understanding my point.

    Let's say that I come up with something called superduper universal jurisdiction. I believe that superduper universal jurisdiction allows me to prosecute you for daring to disagree with me on an internet message board. I hereby declare you an outlaw and demand that you appear before me to be sentenced to life in prison.


    Do you plan on showing up? Do you think I have the authority to do that? Why or why not?
    But you're being incoherent. You don't define the parameters of universal jurisdiction, the community of nations does. So if the community of nations defined trolling as a crime ius cogens, then yes, universal jurisdiction would apply. But that is a ridiculous hypothetical. We're talking about the here and now. Slaver-traders, for instance, didn't used to be covered by universal jurisdicition in the time of Grotius. But the definition expanded, and rightfully so, to include them. See Ambrose Light about that. And after Nuremberg it has grown to include war crimes. See the cases of Adolf Eichmann and Augusto Pinochet about that.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Nonsensical is more like it. Universal jurisdiction only extends to jus cogens crimes, nothing else. So war crimes, genocide, piracy, agression, crimes of that nature. So you're just all kinds of wrong, here.
    No, jus cogens is something entirely different, defined by customary international law. "War crimes" are not jus cogens crimes.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But you're being incoherent. You don't define the parameters of universal jurisdiction, the community of nations does. So if the community of nations defined trolling as a crime ius cogens, then yes, universal jurisdiction would apply. But that is a ridiculous hypothetical. We're talking about the here and now. Slaver-traders, for instance, didn't used to be covered by universal jurisdicition in the time of Grotius. But the definition expanded, and rightfully so, to include them. See Ambrose Light about that. And after Nuremberg it has grown to include war crimes. See the cases of Adolf Eichmann and Augusto Pinochet about that.
    lol, nice dodge.

    You're not answering the real question - what makes you think that some court can declare that it has the authority to prosecute people from any country, regardless of whether their country accedes to that court's jurisdiction? Using your logic, what is there to stop me from declaring myself a competent tribunal to hear those cases?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Wrong. War criminals fall under universal jurisdiction no matter what their nationality, and no matter what their home country's status as signatory to the Rome Statute. Look it up.
    I think you miight be on to something here.

    Being as how the UN is in the USA it should be appropriate to arrest most of the UN members..

    And as soon as America elects a real President, I hope they do just that!

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I want Amnesty International and the U.N banned from the U.S. and Obama impeached for violation of his oath of office.

    A new LAW demanding all who run for President must prove it and in court if need be, and if found to have run illegally you get a mandatory 10 years in Federal prison no exceptions and Presidents can never declare a Presidential pardon for any crime committed by anyone in the administration of the President charged with any crime, or misdemeanor, including removed Presidents.

    But none of that's not going to happen either, because it's too close to justice.
    Prove what?

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I think you miight be on to something here.

    Being as how the UN is in the USA it should be appropriate to arrest most of the UN members..

    And as soon as America elects a real President, I hope they do just that!
    If they are criminals, then I'm all for that. Unfortunately you'd probably run into diplomatic immunity issues there. Jurisdiction might apply in court, but it is impossible to assert against diplomats who are immune to arrest.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    [W]hat makes you think that some court can declare that it has the authority to prosecute people from any country, regardless of whether their country accedes to that court's jurisdiction?
    Some court isn't the one declaring that it has the authority, generations of international legal scholars have decided that. And more to the point, in the United States the controlling opinion of Justice Brown in the Ambrose Light case agrees with them. Is it starting to sink in yet?


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Using your logic, what is there to stop me from declaring myself a competent tribunal to hear those cases?
    The fact that you are not a sovereign nation is what keeps you from declaring yourself a competent tribunal. Do you have any other ridiculous questions?
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-13-10 at 07:02 PM.

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