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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Not agreeing with a legal technicality that legalizes torture is the double standard?

    Done to Americans? Crime worthy of death!
    Done to suspected terrorists? Oh, no biggy.

    That's just the way it works out here in the real world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Rev, let's be honest here. Are you trying to say that the training isn't voluntarily undertaken? That the trainees are forced into it? And I don't mean metaphorically forced, I mean gun-to-the-head kind of forced.
    GI, let's be honest here. There's a debate being had here about whether waterboarding is torture. You say it is torture if consent is not given. The act of waterboarding itself (as you admitted) is clearly NOT torture because we waterboard some of our troops as part of their training. You might be able to build an argument whether RH and Oscar suffered long-term emotional damage, but talking about their experience does not seem be traumatic for them...

    If the act of waterboarding is not torture, consent (or lack thereof) is completely irrelevant. Otherwise we'd be trying to bring up a whole bunch of police officers for "torturing" suspects by detaining them without their consent...

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If it were really bulletproof, and not just something that some want to be true, there would have been a court case and Clinton convicted.
    I have a strange feeling of deja vu, as if I've heard this argument before. Right, if Bush so obviously committed war crimes, he would have been impeached and convicted. That argument didn't seem to hold much water when directed at you...

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    If the act of waterboarding is not torture, consent (or lack thereof) is completely irrelevant. Otherwise we'd be trying to bring up a whole bunch of police officers for "torturing" suspects by detaining them without their consent...
    That is just plain factually wrong. The argument that the fact that we waterboard our troops in training and therefore waterboarding is not ever torture under any circumstances, is one of the most facile, incoherent arguments I've ever heard.

    Please, just read the definition of torture. It's been posted several times. Torture only applies in limited instances, such as interrogation. Even assuming that waterboarding for military training isn't consented to (patently untrue, but let's just grant it for the sake of argument), training is not one of the ennumerated circumstances in which the war crime of torture can even occur. Read the definition of torture, please.

    You need to recognize that water boarding for interrogation purposes is torture, water boarding for training purposes is not, period. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of definition. Since you're deliberately ignoring the actual definition, I'm afraid I can no longer indulge you until you have done so.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-12-10 at 11:59 PM.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Incorrect. Waterboarding has been defined as torture under US law since at least WWII, when the US prosecuted the Japanese soldiers who water boarded American POWs.
    Do you have a source for the law you're referring to?

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    There was a court case. Clinton paid Paula Jones $850,000 to drop the charges . I guess he paid her all that phat cash because he did absolutely nothing to her.
    That IS 100% true. Just not sure if its extorsion. Probably not.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's just the way it works out here in the real world.
    So you're backing off your statement and accepting that you have a double standard. Americans can do things that they execute others for doing, and it's ok.

    And you wonder why they hate us.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    That is just plain factually wrong. The argument that the fact that we waterboard our troops in training and therefore waterboarding is not ever torture under any circumstances, is one of the most facile, incoherent arguments I've ever heard.

    Please, just read the definition of torture. It's been posted several times. Torture only applies in limited instances, such as interrogation. Even assuming that waterboarding for military training isn't consented to (patently untrue, but let's just grant it for the sake of argument), training is not one of the ennumerated circumstances in which the war crime of torture can even occur. Read the definition of torture, please.

    You need to recognize that water boarding for interrogation purposes is torture, water boarding for training purposes is not, period. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of definition. Since you're deliberately ignoring the actual definition, I'm afraid I can no longer indulge you until you have done so.
    Based on your definition of torture, waterboarding soldiers for training purposes inflicts severe pain and suffering, but it's ok to inflict severe pain and suffering on another individual if your purpose is something other than:
    obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind
    Further, according to your definition of torture, I can waterboard you since I'm not acting in an official capacity.

    I can't tell you what I think of your argument right now without getting another infraction...
    Last edited by FederalRepublic; 11-13-10 at 12:36 AM.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    Do you have a source for the law you're referring to?
    Those Japanese soldiers we executed after WWII for waterboarding American soldiers?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Those Japanese soldiers we executed after WWII for waterboarding American soldiers?
    They weren't. They were convicted of a whole basket of war crimes, most of which were much more serious. It's disingenuous to say they were executed for "waterboarding" when there was much, much more in the mix than only that.

    And there was no specific charge of "waterboarding" in the first place; the charge was "inhumane treatment." No one was executed for that alone.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 11-13-10 at 01:19 AM.
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