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Thread: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    A war crime is a war crime. Torture is torture. Perjury is perjury.

    If it is a war crime our government would not expose them consent or not.
    I feel like we're going round and round. A war crime is indeed a war crime, and torture is indeed torture. I agree with you on both points. But water-boarding isn't torture if there is consent. Thus when water-boarding is performed on soldiers with their consent it is not the war crime of torture. Your argument is incoherent, zimmmer.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    1. the act of compelling by force of authority

    2. Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way.


    3. Actual or threatened force for the purpose of compelling action by another person

    4. Use of physical or moral force to compel a person to do something, or to abstain from doing something, thereby depriving that person of the exercise of free will.

    5. to cause to do through pressure or necessity, by physical, moral or intellectual means

    6. Forced or compelled into doing something, through fear, intimidation, and/or threats.
    Utterly irrelevant. The law doesn't defer to Noah Webster's definition of the word. We are talking about the legal definition of coercion, not the vernacular definition.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Ultimately yes. And what's more, they are treated differently. They don't get the fully effort, or full effect. We do that with a lot things in preparation for what we might might face, a waterdown version so to speak. If you think any training you got was equal to the real thing, you're fooling yourself.
    have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

    I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Utterly irrelevant. The law doesn't defer to Noah Webster's definition of the word. We are talking about the legal definition of coercion, not the vernacular definition.
    so where is the actual legal definition and not your cherry picked segment? afraid to post it because it shows you are full of crap
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

    I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.
    I don't know, I'm sure it's a horrible experience. Certainly not something I want to go through. But how do these things go down? Do you know you're actually in friendly territory and going through drills, or is it done in a way in which you don't know? Where maybe you feel you could really be in enemy hands? Because there's a big difference between the two scenarios. I'm sure that if someone randomly picked you up, put you in a jail somewhere where you are hard pressed for any legal representation or reasons for your incarceration, and then they began to waterboard you that perhaps the response curve would be different.
    Last edited by Ikari; 11-11-10 at 04:09 PM.
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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".

    I love how all these armchair generals try to tell those of us who have actually "been there, done that" how real or unreal our experiences were.
    And a medical condition is a way to stop, would that have been so with KSM? Or how about not holding up well? that too would have stopped. No so with those really going through it. Do you honestly believe we showed the same care for those we saw as enemies as we do those we're training?

    So, yes, you can get them to quit, if you react strongly enough.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    have you ever been through the training? the answer is an unequivocal NO. ONCE IT STARTS, you are there for the duration of the event, unless your medical condition warrants otherwise. you can't just say "stop I quit".
    Are you seriously trying to deny that trainees can wash out? Yet it happens all the time! You're just plain factually incorrect.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so where is the actual legal definition and not your cherry picked segment? afraid to post it because it shows you are full of crap
    It's been posted before a number of times in this very thread. Afraid to read it?

    My mistake, forgot that we were talking about coercion, not torture. In that case, I've already posted just one page ago that the legal definition of coercion is compulsion by "force or threat of force." Societal pressure not to wash out of training is not legally considered coercive.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-11-10 at 04:11 PM.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's been posted before a number of times in this very thread. Afraid to read it?

    My mistake, forgot that we were talking about coercion, not torture. In that case, I've already posted just one page ago that the legal definition of coercion is compulsion by "force or threat of force."
    apparently you can't read. you linked to a definition irrelevent to our discussion. got to it before the edit..so

    link or post the entire definition...not just the bit you like in quotes.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

    Some more:

    . . . The interrogation of detainees extends far beyond SERE experts’ mission — teaching airmen and other military members to resist harsh interrogation techniques, according to testimony by Col. Steven Kleinman, an Air Force intelligence officer and interrogator.

    (snip)

    “I told them this is illegal,” Kleinman said. “I ended up putting a stop to it.”

    Kleinman also testified that using SERE methods for interrogations is inappropriate because the communist techniques they are based on were designed to generate propaganda, not intelligence.

    Colonel: SERE tactics used on Iraqi detainees - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

    While interrogation and teaching resistance to interrogation have much in common,
    they are nonetheless profoundly different activities.

    •Survival instructors operate in a domestic training environment and share both a language and culture with the students they teach. In contrast, interrogators are involved in worldwide operations and interact with foreign nationals across an often substantial cultural and linguistic divide.
    •If questions arise about the student’s veracity during role-play, a survival
    instructor need only call the student’s unit of assignment to verify the
    information. Clearly, this is not an option for an interrogator for whom
    detecting deception is a critical skill
    •While interrogation role-play is limited in duration, frequency, and scope,
    interrogations of custodial detainees may last hours and continue over a span
    of months.

    •The survival instructor’s focus is not on information but the performance of the student while the interrogator must doggedly pursue—and record—every detail of intelligence information a detainee possesses.

    Senate Testimony: Col. Steven M. Kleinman

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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