• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

The only thing torturing does is make people say what ever you want them to say. Ask John McCain about that.
 
The only thing torturing does is make people say what ever you want them to say. Ask John McCain about that.


Well, I actually agree to a point. What other methods sans water boarding do you think is torture that the US is documented to have committed?

j-mac
 
The only thing torturing does is make people say what ever you want them to say. Ask John McCain about that.

That is not true, at least the potential for results. My understanding is that within the Quran, efforts of resistance are dictated. Once met, the one being inconvenienced can spill his or her guts. That occured with a few detainees if reports are to be believed.

Information given is put to the corroberation test. With what information has been provided, and it is limited in what has been made public, we captured other operatives and stopped other terrorist plans because of information gotten via interrogations which included water-boarding.

In the case of McCain and other POW's, there was very little actionable information available, as the U.S. POW's did not have much in the way of covert intelligence to give. What they did do is make statements critical of the U.S., which is what was wanted. Point being, enhanced interrogation does work.
 
Last edited:
The only thing torturing does is make people say what ever you want them to say. Ask John McCain about that.

Right out of the DNC talking points as if you believe a world McCain says. How many al Qaeda members were captured after the three high value targets were waterboarded? Bush explained it quite well last night when talking about the role the Islamic religion played in getting the evidence from KSM. Waterboarding led to the gathering of data that saved American lives. Wonder how you would have felt had a family member been killed by a terrorist?
 
No, we aren't the media, they are a propaganda machine as has been proven by the actual results.

There's lots of propoganda in the world, some provided by yourself. But as I siad, media is just the temr for the method we use to communicate. :coffeepap
 
Do you believe that Barry has "saved, or created" 3 Million jobs?


j-mac

Number seems high to me. But I have no doubt some jobs were saved. I KNOW some where saved here. We have people waiting for the money to end and trying to plan what to do when that money iis all used up.
 
There's lots of propoganda in the world, some provided by yourself. But as I siad, media is just the temr for the method we use to communicate. :coffeepap

Please provide specifics of any propaganda that I have provided. The media has changed over the past decade and no longer represents the non partisan fact finding entity it used to be.
 
Number seems high to me. But I have no doubt some jobs were saved. I KNOW some where saved here. We have people waiting for the money to end and trying to plan what to do when that money iis all used up.

There is no question that some jobs were saved but the questions remain was that the role of the stimulus and how it was sold plus could those jobs have been saved without the Federal Govt. doing it? Teachers' jobs are state responsibilities and the states didn't have to find a way to save those jobs as the govt. stepped in and did what they weren't really authorized to do.
 
Please provide specifics of any propaganda that I have provided. The media has changed over the past decade and no longer represents the non partisan fact finding entity it used to be.

See your post above to me. ;)
 
Misrepresentations and hyperbole are blowing my mind up in this thread. My god. Please people, your points would be a lot more sound and carry a lot more weight if you didn't either completely over exaggerate them, horribly over simplified them, or didn't use it to push a different bone you have to pick.

"Those who trade liberty for security, will end up with neither".

No need to put something you're paraphrasing into quotes, because that's not what he said. The full quote talks about essential liberty with temporary security and when you look at the ACTUAL quote and you look at the extent of the Patriot Act and its affects it is a much, MUCH more open ended argument then your watered down paraphrase leads it to believe.

Terrorists attacks
Obama 0 on American home soil.
Bush 1 heck of one on American soil.

Which is really somewhat irrelevant unless you're working within a vacuum which would be idiotic to do. When terrorists attacks happen in and of themselves is somewhat ridiculous to use as the baromoter for anything.

Radical Christianity says the same thing.

There is however a significantly large difference. Radical Christians by and large do not carry out the wholesale acts of terrorism that are found the world over, nor do they control the countries of governments enforcing their radical rules upon the population. The amount of random and infrequent abortion clinic bombers in the name of, or motivated by, Christianity are dwarfed by the amount of suicide bombers in the name of, or motivated by, Islam. That's not even going into the larger attacks such as 9/11, Madrid, etc. Radical Christians in this country are fighting to get prayer in school and creationism taught, and failing for the most part. Radical Muslims are having homosexuals stoned, christians killed, and children indoctrinated into becoming suicide bombers all through control of the government.

While yes, extremism in anything can and often will lead to bad things, but lets stop this ridiculous act that today extremist Christianity is anywhere near the same in scope, methods, and capabilities as extremist Islam.

The only thing torturing does is make people say what ever you want them to say. Ask John McCain about that.

Actually, that is incorrect. Its considered an inefficient means of interrogation because its as likely, if not more likely, to get you bad information, as they tell you what they think you want to know, as it is to get you good information. HOWEVER, that does not equate to the ONLY THING it gets you is that. It IS possible to get legitimate, actionable, good, true information from enhanced interrogation and even full out torture. This is not a claim that its "right", nor is it claiming its highly effective on its own (quite the contrary actually), but you can't have a legitimate and honest discussion about this kind of stuff if you can't even speak in honest circumstances rather than trumped up hyperbole.

And while Senator McCain's service to this country is exemplary, and he is a living American Hero, and what he went through was absolutely horrible, he is by no means the absolute authority on Torture.
 
There is no question that some jobs were saved but the questions remain was that the role of the stimulus and how it was sold plus could those jobs have been saved without the Federal Govt. doing it? Teachers' jobs are state responsibilities and the states didn't have to find a way to save those jobs as the govt. stepped in and did what they weren't really authorized to do.

That's your question, not mine. Not what j asked either.
 
Number seems high to me. But I have no doubt some jobs were saved. I KNOW some where saved here. We have people waiting for the money to end and trying to plan what to do when that money iis all used up.

But this is the number that Obama and Biden are throwing out there as fact. Do you have a problem with that?

Oh, and how exactly do you calculate a "saved" job? By your own standard you said:

...We have people waiting for the money to end and trying to plan what to do when that money iis all used up.

So that is not really a "saved" job, to me it sounds more like a delayed lay off.


j-mac
 
Really? It seems to me, John McCain was a POW and knows what he is talking about.



So the fact that HE was a POW makes him an expert on what works and what doesn't? Please tell me how you arrive at that conclusion.
 
Really? It seems to me, John McCain was a POW and knows what he is talking about.


Are there any other things we did that you can document that constituted torture?

j-mac
 
Actually, that is incorrect. Its considered an inefficient means of interrogation because its as likely, if not more likely, to get you bad information, as they tell you what they think you want to know, as it is to get you good information. HOWEVER, that does not equate to the ONLY THING it gets you is that. It IS possible to get legitimate, actionable, good, true information from enhanced interrogation and even full out torture. This is not a claim that its "right", nor is it claiming its highly effective on its own (quite the contrary actually), but you can't have a legitimate and honest discussion about this kind of stuff if you can't even speak in honest circumstances rather than trumped up hyperbole.

And while Senator McCain's service to this country is exemplary, and he is a living American Hero, and what he went through was absolutely horrible, he is by no means the absolute authority on Torture.
Did John McCain admit to something that wasn't true or not?
 
But this is the number that Obama and Biden are throwing out there as fact. Do you have a problem with that?

A minor problem. Kind of like how I feel about republicans taking credit for the stock market going up. It's false, but kind of how things work today. I won't defend it, but it does bother me much either.

Oh, and how exactly do you calculate a "saved" job? By your own standard you said:



So that is not really a "saved" job, to me it sounds more like a delayed lay off.


j-mac

Depends on what happens. For now, that jobs is there, and for those working it, saved. But cuts by the state have made it impossible to accomplish our mission, and we will have to change our mission, having a huge effect on the population here, if something isn't done. The state will now likley do less after the last election, and this will effect students harshly in our area.

So for those employed and those needing the service, it was a save.
 
Last edited:
Did John McCain admit to something that wasn't true or not?

No clue. Now do you understand that the experiences of a singular individual does not somehow prove that's the experiences for everyone? If there's a singular example of someone that said something truthful during torture would that prove that the ONLY thing torture provides is true information?
 
A minor problem. Kind of like how I feel about republicans taking credit for the stock market going up. It's false, but kind of how things work today. I won't defend it, but it does bother me much either.

But that is different from the reason I started down this path to begin with. You said:

I don't take anyone's word. I take a look at evidence. I only ask that you do the same. BTW, media is only the method by which something is communicated. By us taking by way of the computer, we're the media.

Which started me asking the questions I did, and clearly I think, in my humble opinion, that although you may indeed like to see the evidence behind a claim, as I think you would agree we all do. You are willing to give a pass in certain circumstances when none is offered. Is that fair?

Depends on what happens. For now, that jobs is there, and for those working it, saved.

Does one need be so short sighted in order for this President to be right?

But cuts by the state have made it impossible to accomplish our mission, and we will have to change our mission, having a huge effect on the population here, if something isn't done. The state will now likley do less after the last election, and this will effect students harshly in our area.

Then it sounds as though you can resolve it at the State level. Good, that is how it was intended to be.

So for those employed and those needing the service, it was a save.

For today. Do you think that the uncertainty of not knowing whether or not you'll have that "saved" job tomorrow bolsters, and grows the economy, or stagnates it, and makes people fearful?


j-mac
 
But that is different from the reason I started down this path to begin with. You said:



Which started me asking the questions I did, and clearly I think, in my humble opinion, that although you may indeed like to see the evidence behind a claim, as I think you would agree we all do. You are willing to give a pass in certain circumstances when none is offered. Is that fair?

A pass, no. I didn't accept it, so there was no pass. We can't fight all fights, so some pick and choose is always going to take palce. However, trying to justify torture, something I see as evil, is much different than fudging numbers on how many jobs were saved. Between the two, I see the torture one as more important to address and argue about.

Does one need be so short sighted in order for this President to be right?

No one suggested short sightedness. But there are ususaly short term and long term goals and efforts. Obama made clear the stimulaus was of the short term variety.


Then it sounds as though you can resolve it at the State level. Good, that is how it was intended to be.

No, it won't be resolved, not after the election. Things will likely get bad for students, which may insire many to ebcome involved again. We'll see. But the state will nto likely help much.


For today. Do you think that the uncertainty of not knowing whether or not you'll have that "saved" job tomorrow bolsters, and grows the economy, or stagnates it, and makes people fearful?

As those people spend and buy, pay their bills and aren't losing their homes, I suspect it helps more than it hurts. For the short term, it has been a positive.
 
Back
Top Bottom