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George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

Orion

The whole debate about waterboarding rests upon the minutiae of the word "torture". Legally speaking, it's not torture for the simple fact that the U.S. was doing it at Gitmo, which falls outside of the signatory regions of the Geneva Convention; the U.S. was doing it to terrorists who are non-state actors and don't fall under the legal definition of enemy combatant; the U.S. did not make a declaration of war and thus the people it captures now can be subject to anything. Should we be impressed that the U.S. so expertly knows how to flout international law? I don't know, but I personally am not.
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So you're saying that the US did was not breaking any international law and yet they were flouting it. How does that work?

Ethically speaking, waterboarding is torture.
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Ethically speaking, so is terrorism.

My beef is that the U.S. tries to portray itself as the good guy, the nation that spreads freedom and democracy, humanitarian principles, etc.
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It is the good guy. If you know of a better guy why not say so?

It is rather two-faced to sign the Geneva Convention on Torture and make grandiose speeches treating people properly, only to turn around and take enemies, without legal recourse, to some concealed gray zone in the Caribbean. All that does is reek of hypocrisy and it has - whether or not those in favour of waterboarding want to admit it - left a black mark on the reputation of the U.S. as a savior of the oppressed.
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Why should the American people care? Their interest is in saving the lives of their fellow Americans, and their Allies, not placating those who don't understand the problems the democracies face from terrorists. If you really feel strongly about "ethics" perhaps you should direct your wrath against those Muslims who refuse to speak out against terrorism or who actually support it. Having a go at the US when the real danger is terrorism is farcical.

If you're going to put people under such duress, then just be up front about it. The USSR did it, China does it to dissidents, and I'm sure some European countries do it in their intelligence communities. Just stop acting so righteous about it, as though your tortures are different from some other nation's. You are no different than they are, regardless if you feel justified in doing it.
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I'm all for being open about torturing suspected terrorists. Why not? I think the more water boarding that goes on against these suspects, the better, and anyone who's considering terrorism as a way of life should consider, and be aware of, the possible consequences.
It is a shining example of why U.S. foreign policy is a complete and utter hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do.
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Whose foreign policy do you prefer?
 
Americans torturing terrorists: ok.
Terrorists torturing Americans: ???

Clearly it's not ok, because we've executed people for torturing American soldiers. Yet we're willing to do it.
 
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Deuce said:
Americans torturing terrorists: ok.
Terrorists torturing Americans: ???

Clearly it's not ok, because we've executed people for torturing American soldiers. Yet we're willing to do it.
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The victors get to make the rules.

Wanna take a guess as to who pushed for the Nuremburg trials? I'll give you hint, it wasn't the US, nor England.

Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
 
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apdst said:
Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
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He has to or youre going to assume that he doesnt mind it.
Is that where youre going?
 
apdst said:
The victors get to make the rules.

Wanna take a guess as to who pushed for the Nuremburg trials? I'll give you hint, it wasn't the US, nor England.

Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
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I've never once seen you complain about it, and you seem fine with torture, so clearly you're ok with it!

Me, I think torturing anybody is wrong. Happy?

Apdst supports torture of American troops. You heard it straight from him!!!
 
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SE102 said:
He has to or youre going to assume that he doesnt mind it.
Is that where youre going?
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No its ok SE. This was the part where honour is restored.

You see, you can easily restore honour by painting others as Terrorist sympathizers. :roll:
 
Orion said:
I had a whole post written out and then my computer froze. I hate it when that happens. What follows won't be nearly as good but I'll try to summarize.

The whole debate about waterboarding rests upon the minutiae of the word "torture". Legally speaking, it's not torture for the simple fact that the U.S. was doing it at Gitmo, which falls outside of the signatory regions of the Geneva Convention; the U.S. was doing it to terrorists who are non-state actors and don't fall under the legal definition of enemy combatant; the U.S. did not make a declaration of war and thus the people it captures now can be subject to anything. Should we be impressed that the U.S. so expertly knows how to flout international law? I don't know, but I personally am not.

Ethically speaking, waterboarding is torture. It is little different than when any fascist regime has procured false confessions or intelligence by dunking a person's head in a basin of water, only to remove it at the brink of suffocation. That they are strapped down to a board and we have finer control over the stimulus makes no difference. It's distressing to the person because they believe their life to be in imminent danger. I am not interested in whether or not the U.S. has the so-called right to do it, or that it's called "enhanced interrogation" or torture. The minutiae are irrelevant. The U.S. can do whatever it wants... it has proven that now. Anything that can happen, does happen. Waterboarding is just one thing the public is aware of.

My beef is that the U.S. tries to portray itself as the good guy, the nation that spreads freedom and democracy, humanitarian principles, etc. It is rather two-faced to sign the Geneva Convention on Torture and make grandiose speeches treating people properly, only to turn around and take enemies, without legal recourse, to some concealed gray zone in the Caribbean. All that does is reek of hypocrisy and it has - whether or not those in favour of waterboarding want to admit it - left a black mark on the reputation of the U.S. as a savior of the oppressed.

If you're going to put people under such duress, then just be up front about it. The USSR did it, China does it to dissidents, and I'm sure some European countries do it in their intelligence communities. Just stop acting so righteous about it, as though your tortures are different from some other nation's. You are no different than they are, regardless if you feel justified in doing it.

It is a shining example of why U.S. foreign policy is a complete and utter hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do.
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I'm not looking to rehash the debate as to whether or not waterboarding is torture.

What I'm looking at is your assertion that the US "has lost all credibility in the detention department." You have not supported that assertion in the slightest.
 
Remember that common sense thing where torture would merely give ammo to our enemies?

Are you aware of the recent news with the UNHRC?

Feel free to brush it off.
 
SE102 said:
Remember that common sense thing where torture would merely give ammo to our enemies?
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I know people throw it around as though it's common sense and never bother to find out if it's actually true. No, that it's "common sense" is considered good enough -- why bother to look? Especially when it matches your preferred worldview?

Are you aware of the recent news with the UNHRC?
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And which "news" exactly are you referring to?
 
Do we pull the fingernails out of our own soldiers as part of their training ? Do we waterboard any of our soldiers as part of their training ?
 
Harshaw said:
I know people throw it around as though it's common sense and never bother to find out if it's actually true. No, that it's "common sense" is considered good enough -- why bother to look? Especially when it matches your preferred worldview?

And which "news" exactly are you referring to?
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This news, where the CIA destroyed the video tapes depicting illegal brutal torture techniques on prisoners held in secret prisons around the world. The evidence suggests there were helluva lot more prisoners rendititoned and tortured than just "three". Some even died from the ordeal. And since none of them had a fair trial, we will never know the proof of the prisoners guilt or innocense and that, along with the use of torture is what undermines US credibility and justice system in the eyes of the world.

"...At the time, Mr. Holder cited a 2004 report by the C.I.A. inspector general that discussed several instances in which detainees died during interrogations by agency officials in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also documented the use of unauthorized techniques — like mock executions, threats to family members and inflicting waterboarding — more often than the department had approved....read" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/world/10tapes.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Interesting, the US borrowed it's torture techniques from the Soviet Union.....

"...In its scramble to create a system, the agency made the momentous decision to use harsh methods that the government had long condemned. It borrowed its techniques from an American military training program modeled on the torture repertories of the Soviet Union and other cold-war adversaries, a lineage that would come to haunt the agency....read"
C.I.A. Interrogations News - The New York Times

If the US uses torture, then what distinguishes it from it's enemies?
 
Jetboogieman said:
That's not the issue at hand Navy.

What about the innocent people who have been tortured by the United States?

The people who beheaded people on the net will be dealt with. Believe me.
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Have you read Bush's book? The U.S. Waterboarded THREE Terrorists and that led to the capture of many top al Qaeda terrorists around the world and there is no question it saved lives!
 
Eighty Deuce said:
Do we pull the fingernails out of our own soldiers as part of their training ? Do we waterboard any of our soldiers as part of their training ?
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special forces etc get waterboarded, tear gassed etc as part of training from what my SF nephew told me.
 
Moot said:
This news, where the CIA destroyed the video tapes depicting illegal brutal torture techniques on prisoners held in secret prisons around the world. The evidence suggests there were helluva lot more prisoners rendititoned and tortured than just "three". Some even died from the ordeal. And since none of them had a fair trial, we will never know the proof of the prisoners guilt or innocense and that, along with the use of torture is what undermines US credibility and justice system in the eyes of the world.

"...At the time, Mr. Holder cited a 2004 report by the C.I.A. inspector general that discussed several instances in which detainees died during interrogations by agency officials in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also documented the use of unauthorized techniques — like mock executions, threats to family members and inflicting waterboarding — more often than the department had approved....read" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/world/10tapes.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Interesting, the US borrowed it's torture techniques from the Soviet Union.....

"...In its scramble to create a system, the agency made the momentous decision to use harsh methods that the government had long condemned. It borrowed its techniques from an American military training program modeled on the torture repertories of the Soviet Union and other cold-war adversaries, a lineage that would come to haunt the agency....read"
C.I.A. Interrogations News - The New York Times

If the US uses torture, then what distinguishes it from it's enemies?
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In times of War the CIC is responsible to do whatever is necessary to save American lives. President Bush authorized Waterboarding of THREE high ranking al Qaeda including the Mastermind of 9/11 that led to the capture of high valued targets. Attornies told him it was legal and he did his job. God Bless President Bush. It really is too bad that liberals are so naive that they don't understand the enemy we face, those that cut off heads and blow up buildings with no regard to innocent lives.
 
TurtleDude said:
special forces etc get waterboarded, tear gassed etc as part of training from what my SF nephew told me.
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Thank you for answering. That is correct. To clarify, I asked about pulling fingernails. We did not do that to our detainees, and we do not do it as part of our elite force training. We do waterboard both, however.

I am borrowing a quote from another poster above :

In its scramble to create a system, the agency made the momentous decision to use harsh methods that the government had long condemned. It borrowed its techniques from an American military training program modeled on the torture repertories of the Soviet Union and other cold-war adversaries, a lineage that would come to haunt the agency
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Not a fan of how the NY Times writes things, but this passage states that we had a training program based on the torture techniques of likely adversaries, which is very true, and pretty much a no-brainer. We then used these techniques that we used on our own soldiers on detainees. We did not "scramble" to create a system. Trust me, we have known what we were doing for a very very long time. In Congressional testimony, even Holder acknowleged that we trained our own elite forces by subjecting them to many of this same "torture" techniques.
 
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TurtleDude said:
special forces etc get waterboarded, tear gassed etc as part of training from what my SF nephew told me.
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Given the choice of who I would want protecting me as CIC which is the basic role of the govt. mandated by the U.S. Constitution I would take GW Bush in a heartbeat over Barack Obama, hands down.
 
Conservative said:
Given the choice of who I would want protecting me as CIC which is the basic role of the govt. mandated by the U.S. Constitution I would take GW Bush in a heartbeat over Barack Obama, hands down.
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even the former GOPer Secretary of the Navy who won as a dem in the Virginia Senate (Webb) admitted that most service people support the GOP over the Dems
 
Moot said:
This news, where the CIA destroyed the video tapes depicting illegal brutal torture techniques on prisoners held in secret prisons around the world.
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And this has what to do with the UNHRC?

The evidence suggests there were helluva lot more prisoners rendititoned and tortured than just "three".
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You have severe problems reading plain language.

I said three people were waterboarded.


Some even died from the ordeal. And since none of them had a fair trial, we will never know the proof of the prisoners guilt or innocense and that, along with the use of torture is what undermines US credibility and justice system in the eyes of the world.

"...At the time, Mr. Holder cited a 2004 report by the C.I.A. inspector general that discussed several instances in which detainees died during interrogations by agency officials in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also documented the use of unauthorized techniques — like mock executions, threats to family members and inflicting waterboarding — more often than the department had approved....read" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/world/10tapes.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

You notice the words "unauthorized" throughout there?
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It's a little light on detail there.
 
TurtleDude said:
even the former GOPer Secretary of the Navy who won as a dem in the Virginia Senate (Webb) admitted that most service people support the GOP over the Dems
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Do you have a link for your assertion?
 
Not sure what to think of this. I read that the U.S. hung Japanese soldiers during WWII for waterboarding.
 
Harshaw said:
And this has what to do with the UNHRC?

You have severe problems reading plain language.

I said three people were waterboarded.

It's a little light on detail there
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It has more to do with your assertion that only three people were "waterboarded" and "no" innocents. You were wrong.
 
Conservative said:
Have you read Bush's book? The U.S. Waterboarded THREE Terrorists and that led to the capture of many top al Qaeda terrorists around the world and there is no question it saved lives!
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Even the liar Bush does not make such wild claims as you suggest he does. Have you read the book?
 
Jetboogieman said:
Ok. So if innocents haven't been tortured. Then your government should disclose all records relating to prisoner transport and treatment immediately.
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You've been trying to derail and change the subject for two pages now. This isn't about what you want to talk about, it's about Bush. He came to office with a huge sack, and now we have a metrosexual man in office, and you want to cloud the issue. Bush acted like a President should and terrorists bastards were made to talk.
 
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