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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

  1. #301
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Obviously I was wrong in responding to you.
    No surprise there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Did GW Bush break the law by waterboarding 3 high value al Qaeda operatives?
    I don't know, as I don't think there is a cut-and-dried answer. The fact that Congress did not impeach him has absolutely no bearing at all in the legality of such an order, however. To think it does requires some amazing partisan mental gymnastics in order to avoid basic logic and common sense. If Congress's unwillingness to impeach Bush proves that waterboarding is legal, it follows that OJ's acquittal proves that he did not kill Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    No surprise there.I don't know, as I don't think there is a cut-and-dried answer. The fact that Congress did not impeach him has absolutely no bearing at all in the legality of such an order, however. To think it does requires some amazing partisan mental gymnastics in order to avoid basic logic and common sense. If Congress's unwillingness to impeach Bush proves that waterboarding is legal, it follows that OJ's acquittal proves that he did not kill Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman.
    That is the point, it isn't cut and dry, attornies said it was legal, others said it wasn't so here we sit reliving something that happened during the last Administration, a total waste of time.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That is the point, it isn't cut and dry, attornies said it was legal, others said it wasn't so here we sit reliving something that happened during the last Administration, a total waste of time.
    That is a lot different than what you said earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Lawyer's believed waterboarding was legal and regardless of the argument you or I make lives were saved by President Bush's efforts. That is good enough for me.
    So which is it, legal because some lawyer said so, or a gray area because of the split of opinion among lawyers?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It doesn't do that. Both it and the Washington post story, if you look it, say this was claimed, not supported. If you look, you will find that we knew aboutt he second wave before KSm, so his telling us was not new intel, not something we didn't get another way. What they are refering to was tharted before KSM was even captured.

    . . . In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

    The Washington Monthly

    You might also read this:

    If the detainee doesn't immediately respond by giving information, for example he asks: "what do you want to know?" the interviewer will reply: "you know," and walk out of the interrogation room. Then the next step on the force continuum is introduced, for example sleep deprivation, and the process will continue until the detainee's will is broken and he automatically gives up all information he is presumed to know.
    There are many problems with this technique.

    A major problem is that it is ineffective. Al Qaeda terrorists are trained to resist torture. As shocking as these techniques are to us, the al Qaeda training prepares them for much worse the torture they would expect to receive if caught by dictatorships for example.
    This is why, as we see from the recently released Department of Justice memos on interrogation, the contractors had to keep getting authorization to use harsher and harsher methods, until they reached waterboarding and then there was nothing they could do but use that technique again and again. Abu Zubaydah had to be waterboarded 83 times and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed 183 times. In a democracy there is a glass ceiling of harsh techniques the interrogator cannot breach, and a detainee can eventually call the interrogator's bluff.

    In addition the harsh techniques only serves to reinforce what the detainee has been prepared to expect if captured. This gives him a greater sense of control and predictability about his experience, and strengthens his will to resist.

    A second major problem with this technique is that evidence gained from it is unreliable. There is no way to know whether the detainee is being truthful, or just speaking to either mitigate his discomfort or to deliberately provide false information. As the interrogator isn't an expert on the detainee or the subject matter, nor has he spent time going over the details of the case, the interrogator cannot easily know if the detainee is telling the truth. This unfortunately has happened and we have had problems ranging from agents chasing false leads to the disastrous case of Ibn Sheikh al-Libby who gave false information on Iraq, al Qaeda, and WMD.

    Testimony


    Washington Post Hires Cheneyite Marc Thiessen
    In summary, sleep deprivation is torture and any sort of interrogation yields unreliable information and should not be attempted.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    In summary, sleep deprivation is torture and any sort of interrogation yields unreliable information and should not be attempted.
    No, that's a stupid misinterpretation. The last part actual gives an argument for more effective measures that work better.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    As I pointed out liberals all over the country demonized Bush for not preventing 9/11 including you and now when there is evidence that shows other 9/11's were prevented you ignore it and continue to demonize Bush for what you believe was torture. Lawyer's believed waterboarding was legal and regardless of the argument you or I make lives were saved by President Bush's efforts. That is good enough for me.
    I'm not liberals all over, who ever they are. As for 9/11, there's enough blame to go around, but if we take that example, torture wasn't needed to prevent it (neither was invasion or assination). All that we needed to do was allow the FBI and the CIA to share information, because together they knew and had they shared information could have put it together and prevented it. All without torture, invasion, or assination. Sometimes simple clear actions are better than wild chicken **** overreaction.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that's a stupid misinterpretation. The last part actual gives an argument for more effective measures that work better.
    It's not a misinterpretation.

    "There is no way to know whether the detainee is being truthful, or just speaking to either mitigate his discomfort or to deliberately provide false information. As the interrogator isn't an expert on the detainee or the subject matter, nor has he spent time going over the details of the case, the interrogator cannot easily know if the detainee is telling the truth. "

    Any interrogation technique suffers from these same limitations. Therefore, interrogation is futile. I don't believe that, but that's what you posted.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    It's not a misinterpretation.

    "There is no way to know whether the detainee is being truthful, or just speaking to either mitigate his discomfort or to deliberately provide false information. As the interrogator isn't an expert on the detainee or the subject matter, nor has he spent time going over the details of the case, the interrogator cannot easily know if the detainee is telling the truth. "

    Any interrogation technique suffers from these same limitations. Therefore, interrogation is futile. I don't believe that, but that's what you posted.
    Again, that is one problem with torture. Unrealiable. other methods have less problem with that as opposed to no problem with it. With torture, even the innocent, competely unknowleagable will give information. Other methods can sort through that better.

    But, if we accpet your misreading, and all suffer from the same problems equally (they don't), why torture?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    That is a lot different than what you said earlier:So which is it, legal because some lawyer said so, or a gray area because of the split of opinion among lawyers?
    Run away! Run away!

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Sorry, didn't read your profile but the question remains, how would you feel if your leadership could have prevented the death of one of your loved ones but didn't? Waterboarding wasn't classified as torture by the lawyers regardless of what you claim and that action saved a lot of American lives. I support what Bush did and would take him back in a heartbeat.
    Thank you, my brother, thank you!
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