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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It was a question. You made a sweeping assertion with nothing to back it up, so it was a natural one.
    Please don't insult me further by trying to justify an obvious jab. I'll accept your apology any time, or you can just proceed with a real argument and I'd be happy to entertain it. Producing neither will result in me ignoring you.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Please don't insult me further by trying to justify an obvious jab. I'll accept your apology any time, or you can just proceed with a real argument and I'd be happy to entertain it. Producing neither will result in me ignoring you.
    Why so sensitive?

    Perhaps you would be better-served explaining exactly how you come to your conclusion.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Torture is torture, war crimes are war crimes, and this criminal monster needs to be brought to justice.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Perhaps you would be better-served explaining exactly how you come to your conclusion.
    I had a whole post written out and then my computer froze. I hate it when that happens. What follows won't be nearly as good but I'll try to summarize.

    The whole debate about waterboarding rests upon the minutiae of the word "torture". Legally speaking, it's not torture for the simple fact that the U.S. was doing it at Gitmo, which falls outside of the signatory regions of the Geneva Convention; the U.S. was doing it to terrorists who are non-state actors and don't fall under the legal definition of enemy combatant; the U.S. did not make a declaration of war and thus the people it captures now can be subject to anything. Should we be impressed that the U.S. so expertly knows how to flout international law? I don't know, but I personally am not.

    Ethically speaking, waterboarding is torture. It is little different than when any fascist regime has procured false confessions or intelligence by dunking a person's head in a basin of water, only to remove it at the brink of suffocation. That they are strapped down to a board and we have finer control over the stimulus makes no difference. It's distressing to the person because they believe their life to be in imminent danger. I am not interested in whether or not the U.S. has the so-called right to do it, or that it's called "enhanced interrogation" or torture. The minutiae are irrelevant. The U.S. can do whatever it wants... it has proven that now. Anything that can happen, does happen. Waterboarding is just one thing the public is aware of.

    My beef is that the U.S. tries to portray itself as the good guy, the nation that spreads freedom and democracy, humanitarian principles, etc. It is rather two-faced to sign the Geneva Convention on Torture and make grandiose speeches treating people properly, only to turn around and take enemies, without legal recourse, to some concealed gray zone in the Caribbean. All that does is reek of hypocrisy and it has - whether or not those in favour of waterboarding want to admit it - left a black mark on the reputation of the U.S. as a savior of the oppressed.

    If you're going to put people under such duress, then just be up front about it. The USSR did it, China does it to dissidents, and I'm sure some European countries do it in their intelligence communities. Just stop acting so righteous about it, as though your tortures are different from some other nation's. You are no different than they are, regardless if you feel justified in doing it.

    It is a shining example of why U.S. foreign policy is a complete and utter hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Torture is torture, war crimes are war crimes, and this criminal monster needs to be brought to justice.

    Great idea!

    Why don't you make a citizen's arrest?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Orion

    The whole debate about waterboarding rests upon the minutiae of the word "torture". Legally speaking, it's not torture for the simple fact that the U.S. was doing it at Gitmo, which falls outside of the signatory regions of the Geneva Convention; the U.S. was doing it to terrorists who are non-state actors and don't fall under the legal definition of enemy combatant; the U.S. did not make a declaration of war and thus the people it captures now can be subject to anything. Should we be impressed that the U.S. so expertly knows how to flout international law? I don't know, but I personally am not.
    So you're saying that the US did was not breaking any international law and yet they were flouting it. How does that work?

    Ethically speaking, waterboarding is torture.
    Ethically speaking, so is terrorism.

    My beef is that the U.S. tries to portray itself as the good guy, the nation that spreads freedom and democracy, humanitarian principles, etc.
    It is the good guy. If you know of a better guy why not say so?

    It is rather two-faced to sign the Geneva Convention on Torture and make grandiose speeches treating people properly, only to turn around and take enemies, without legal recourse, to some concealed gray zone in the Caribbean. All that does is reek of hypocrisy and it has - whether or not those in favour of waterboarding want to admit it - left a black mark on the reputation of the U.S. as a savior of the oppressed.
    Why should the American people care? Their interest is in saving the lives of their fellow Americans, and their Allies, not placating those who don't understand the problems the democracies face from terrorists. If you really feel strongly about "ethics" perhaps you should direct your wrath against those Muslims who refuse to speak out against terrorism or who actually support it. Having a go at the US when the real danger is terrorism is farcical.

    If you're going to put people under such duress, then just be up front about it. The USSR did it, China does it to dissidents, and I'm sure some European countries do it in their intelligence communities. Just stop acting so righteous about it, as though your tortures are different from some other nation's. You are no different than they are, regardless if you feel justified in doing it.
    I'm all for being open about torturing suspected terrorists. Why not? I think the more water boarding that goes on against these suspects, the better, and anyone who's considering terrorism as a way of life should consider, and be aware of, the possible consequences.
    It is a shining example of why U.S. foreign policy is a complete and utter hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do.
    Whose foreign policy do you prefer?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Americans torturing terrorists: ok.
    Terrorists torturing Americans: ???

    Clearly it's not ok, because we've executed people for torturing American soldiers. Yet we're willing to do it.
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-09-10 at 09:56 PM.
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Americans torturing terrorists: ok.
    Terrorists torturing Americans: ???

    Clearly it's not ok, because we've executed people for torturing American soldiers. Yet we're willing to do it.
    The victors get to make the rules.

    Wanna take a guess as to who pushed for the Nuremburg trials? I'll give you hint, it wasn't the US, nor England.

    Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
    Last edited by apdst; 11-09-10 at 10:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
    He has to or youre going to assume that he doesnt mind it.
    Is that where youre going?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The victors get to make the rules.

    Wanna take a guess as to who pushed for the Nuremburg trials? I'll give you hint, it wasn't the US, nor England.

    Ultimately, we never hear you complain about the bad guys torturing our people. Why is that?
    I've never once seen you complain about it, and you seem fine with torture, so clearly you're ok with it!

    Me, I think torturing anybody is wrong. Happy?

    Apdst supports torture of American troops. You heard it straight from him!!!
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-09-10 at 10:10 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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