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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    I was going to likewise suggest, again, in response to Erod, that with the cases of Lincoln, of Jefferson, and so forth, the matter is always far from settled. Just think about how Lincoln could be viewed by Southern Historians around the time after reconstruction ended? A significant change happened there. The change could still significantly end if we thought his control of the Union during the war was extreme and at contrary to our political morals, as a great many Libertarians brought up. With Jefferson, I can't tell you how many times I have walked around discussing Jefferson with people who will be teaching our young people, and having them respond with 1) "Says the man who owned slaves" 2) "Says the man who slept with his slave". There is a significant amount of contempt for Jefferson because of his relationship to slavery and the high likelihood that it was he who fathered a child from Sally Hemmings (though we have no means of identifying exactly that he was the father of said child).
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 11-11-10 at 01:31 PM.
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Don't miss this conservative.
    Did you miss the Washington Post article? How do you know that your source is more credible than others? At this point does it really matter? You have so much invested in your hatred of GW Bush that anything that flies in the face of your own opinions or those of others that for some reason you want to believe you ignore.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Did you miss the Washington Post article?

    Did you post the Wash Post article or someone elses opinion of that article?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Did you miss the Washington Post article? How do you know that your source is more credible than others? At this point does it really matter? You have so much invested in your hatred of GW Bush that anything that flies in the face of your own opinions or those of others that for some reason you want to believe you ignore.
    I did't miss. I read it. It's a claim. The timeline is a fact. It was not possible for KSM to have stoped that threat.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I was going to likewise suggest, again, in response to Erod, that with the cases of Lincoln, of Jefferson, and so forth, the matter is always far from settled. Just think about how Lincoln could be viewed by Southern Historians around the time after reconstruction ended? A significant change happened there. The change could still significantly end if we thought his control of the Union during the war was extreme and at contrary to our political morals, as a great many Libertarians brought up. With Jefferson, I can't tell you how many times I have walked around discussing Jefferson with people who will be teaching our young people, and having them respond with 1) "Says the man who owned slaves" 2) "Says the man who slept with his slave". There is a significant amount of contempt for Jefferson because of his relationship to slavery and the high likelihood that it was he who fathered a child from Sally Hemmings (though we have no means of identifying exactly that he was the father of said child).
    I certainly don't suggest that all of the controversy just falls away. I'm saying that the overly partisan vitriole, which only serves political purpose for that specific time, falls away in time, and a more level-headed, honest criticism takes its place.

    Today, you can't have an honest debate about President Bush.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I did't miss. I read it. It's a claim. The timeline is a fact. It was not possible for KSM to have stoped that threat.
    And yours are just claims as well. The CIA stands by their statements which obviously are trumped by unnamed sources in the NY Times in your world.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I certainly don't suggest that all of the controversy just falls away. I'm saying that the overly partisan vitriole, which only serves political purpose for that specific time, falls away in time, and a more level-headed, honest criticism takes its place.

    Today, you can't have an honest debate about President Bush.
    And I would agree that being overly vitriole has made discussion a bit more difficult. However, I saw your confidence as perhaps...perhaps, indicative of your political philosophy and that the statement that "he will be" "by history" as too presumptive. For relatively recent perspective, much of our analysis of Presidents in the past century has continued to show a gray area instead of a declarative statement. Now, this is not to say that perhaps even more time is needed than 100 years, as I explained earlier, but that my explicit background knowledge is in how other historians and the masses view Presidents of this past century. There are some men who just do not escape the initial judgement.
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    And I would agree that being overly vitriole has made discussion a bit more difficult. However, I saw your confidence as perhaps...perhaps, indicative of your political philosophy and that the statement that "he will be" "by history" as too presumptive. For relatively recent perspective, much of our analysis of Presidents in the past century has continued to show a gray area instead of a declarative statement. Now, this is not to say that perhaps even more time is needed than 100 years, as I explained earlier, but that my explicit background knowledge is in how other historians and the masses view Presidents of this past century. There are some men who just do not escape the initial judgement.
    All true, although I don't see how Bush could be more unfairly treated by today's liberal scholars and media.

    He will be debated in the future, no doubt, but in a much more honest way.

    FDR is still hotly debated: Liberals see him as the founder of their political religion, while conservatives see him as the father of American socialism and welfare entitlements. Liberals think he ended the Great Depression with the New Deal, while conservatives say it only lengthened the Depression and created a government-dependent citizenry, while it took WWII and the fall of Europe as the financial mecca to end our economic collapse.

    Bush will get a fair shake one day.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    And yours are just claims as well. The CIA stands by their statements which obviously are trumped by unnamed sources in the NY Times in your world.
    Standing by them is not enough. They have to deal with the factual information. It isn't possible because of the timeline. Your willingness to believe is not equal to truth.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Standing by them is not enough. They have to deal with the factual information. It isn't possible because of the timeline. Your willingness to believe is not equal to truth.
    As I pointed out liberals all over the country demonized Bush for not preventing 9/11 including you and now when there is evidence that shows other 9/11's were prevented you ignore it and continue to demonize Bush for what you believe was torture. Lawyer's believed waterboarding was legal and regardless of the argument you or I make lives were saved by President Bush's efforts. That is good enough for me.

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