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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

  1. #261
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    History will treat the man very, very well.

    Jefferson was treated much the same at the end of his term, as was Lincoln, Adams, and others.

    Once time squelches the foolish rhetoric and partisan emotion from the truth, Bush will be remembered in an entirely different light.

    And Obama will go down with Buchanan and Carter.
    Don't be so confident. The thing about history is that it will not guarantee vindication or repudiation. A great amount of the time, perspective gives us more of a grey area. Then one also has to keep in mind that historians write for the people that exist currently. Our morals, our perceptions of gender, class, and even our virtues may change. When these things change, historians and biographers use that to filter how they view a specific person or a group of people.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Yes, because asking loaded questions always yields accurate results.
    Loaded questions? Asking someone how they would respond if one of their loved ones died because the Govt. didn't do what they could to prevent it? Liberals always have 20-20 hindsight but never think ahead. It is live for today and forget about tomorrow.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    History will treat the man very, very well.

    Jefferson was treated much the same at the end of his term, as was Lincoln, Adams, and others.

    Once time squelches the foolish rhetoric and partisan emotion from the truth, Bush will be remembered in an entirely different light.

    And Obama will go down with Buchanan and Carter.
    Placing Dubya up with Jefferson and Lincoln already? Wow.

    Bartender, I'll have what he's having.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Don't be so confident. The thing about history is that it will not guarantee vindication or repudiation. A great amount of the time, perspective gives us more of a grey area. Then one also has to keep in mind that historians write for the people that exist currently. Our morals, our perceptions of gender, class, and even our virtues may change. When these things change, historians and biographers use that to filter how they view a specific person or a group of people.
    The issue here is objective review of the Bush Administration and there aren't many here that are objective. That is why it will take time to truly evaluate President Bush as there is too much bias today on both sides. The actual facts from non partisan sources however will play a major role.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Loaded questions? Asking someone how they would respond if one of their loved ones died because the Govt. didn't do what they could to prevent it? Liberals always have 20-20 hindsight but never think ahead. It is live for today and forget about tomorrow.
    Okay, loaded questions and appeals to emotion. Sorry about leaving that fallacy off.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Okay, loaded questions and appeals to emotion. Sorry about leaving that fallacy off.
    Sorry but what President Bush did was save someone's loved ones from dying in another terrorist attack. I remember well how liberals attacked him for not preventing 9/11 but when he prevents another one it is ignored and he is demonized. he isn't going to win with people like you.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Placing Dubya up with Jefferson and Lincoln already? Wow.

    Bartender, I'll have what he's having.
    No, just making a point that presidents we hold in extremely high regard weren't at all during their times in office and immediately after.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Sorry but what President Bush did was save someone's loved ones from dying in another terrorist attack. I remember well how liberals attacked him for not preventing 9/11 but when he prevents another one it is ignored and he is demonized. he isn't going to win with people like you.
    How is that remotely related to the point I was trying to make?

    And who exactly are "people like" me?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Noticed again that you ignored when I gave you a link to another source that refutes what you posted. What makes the NY Times more credible?
    It doesn't do that. Both it and the Washington post story, if you look it, say this was claimed, not supported. If you look, you will find that we knew aboutt he second wave before KSm, so his telling us was not new intel, not something we didn't get another way. What they are refering to was tharted before KSM was even captured.

    . . . In a White House press briefing, Bush's counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader was arrested in February 2002, and "at that point, the other members of the cell" (later arrested) "believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward" [italics mine]. A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, "In 2002, we broke up [italics mine] a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 2003.

    The Washington Monthly

    You might also read this:

    If the detainee doesn't immediately respond by giving information, for example he asks: "what do you want to know?" the interviewer will reply: "you know," and walk out of the interrogation room. Then the next step on the force continuum is introduced, for example sleep deprivation, and the process will continue until the detainee's will is broken and he automatically gives up all information he is presumed to know.
    There are many problems with this technique.

    A major problem is that it is ineffective. Al Qaeda terrorists are trained to resist torture. As shocking as these techniques are to us, the al Qaeda training prepares them for much worse – the torture they would expect to receive if caught by dictatorships for example.
    This is why, as we see from the recently released Department of Justice memos on interrogation, the contractors had to keep getting authorization to use harsher and harsher methods, until they reached waterboarding and then there was nothing they could do but use that technique again and again. Abu Zubaydah had to be waterboarded 83 times and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed 183 times. In a democracy there is a glass ceiling of harsh techniques the interrogator cannot breach, and a detainee can eventually call the interrogator's bluff.

    In addition the harsh techniques only serves to reinforce what the detainee has been prepared to expect if captured. This gives him a greater sense of control and predictability about his experience, and strengthens his will to resist.

    A second major problem with this technique is that evidence gained from it is unreliable. There is no way to know whether the detainee is being truthful, or just speaking to either mitigate his discomfort or to deliberately provide false information. As the interrogator isn't an expert on the detainee or the subject matter, nor has he spent time going over the details of the case, the interrogator cannot easily know if the detainee is telling the truth. This unfortunately has happened and we have had problems ranging from agents chasing false leads to the disastrous case of Ibn Sheikh al-Libby who gave false information on Iraq, al Qaeda, and WMD.

    Testimony


    Washington Post Hires Cheneyite Marc Thiessen

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    How is that remotely related to the point I was trying to make?

    And who exactly are "people like" me?
    So you have respect now for President Bush?

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