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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I vaguely recall him having contact with Islamic extremists, who supposedly convinced him to do what he did. It's mostly speculative because the military hasn't really released a lot of that information. The other prevailing theory is that he just broke down and snapped because he didn't want to be deployed again, which would make him just another mentally unstable man who snapped and shot up the place, more akin to the Virginia Tech shooter than a terrorist.

    So, again, if you want to label him a terrorist, you're going to have to show some evidence of a political or ideological objective he was trying to achieve.
    I don't "want to label him" anything. It really doesn't matter to me. But you seem hell-bent on him not being a terrorist, though you're certainly willing to attribute to him other things which require the same kind of mind-reading. Like "treason."

    Why does it matter to you so much that he is or isn't a terrorist?


    Terrorism has the objective of inflicting fear in furtherance of some sort of political or ideological goal. What evidence is there that he had such a goal?
    What evidence is there that he was affirmatively waging war against the United States or providing aid and comfort to her enemies? That is the definition of "treason."
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    It's related to the law of large numbers, mate -- you can't be right 100% of the time, and there are enough political prisoners of the US for there to be a significant "wrongly accused" portion.

    Or are you going to attempt to argue that the CIA is infallible?
    This, too, is not evidence of wrongdoing. If you make accusations, particularly of the criminal variety, it's customary to have actual evidence, rather than "oh, with that many, someone somewhere HAD to have done it."
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    This, too, is not evidence of wrongdoing. If you make accusations, particularly of the criminal variety, it's customary to have actual evidence, rather than "oh, with that many, someone somewhere HAD to have done it."
    We're not looking at a specific case or profile, nor even a specific event. I know I've come into the thread at a point where we're not really discussing this any more, but all I was saying was that America is as fallible as every other nation or group out there -- they make mistakes, and they inevitably make mistakes with political prisoners. That's all.

    It's nothing groundbreaking.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    We're not looking at a specific case or profile, nor even a specific event. I know I've come into the thread at a point where we're not really discussing this any more, but all I was saying was that America is as fallible as every other nation or group out there -- they make mistakes, and they inevitably make mistakes with political prisoners. That's all.

    It's nothing groundbreaking.
    Well, that's funny, because if you're accusing wrongdoing, you need to show that it actually happened, not that your perception of things leads you to conclude that it must have.
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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I don't "want to label him" anything. It really doesn't matter to me. But you seem hell-bent on him not being a terrorist, though you're certainly willing to attribute to him other things which require the same kind of mind-reading. Like "treason."

    Why does it matter to you so much that he is or isn't a terrorist?
    Why does it matter so much to you? It doesn't make a huge difference to me, the end result is going to be the same.




    What evidence is there that he was affirmatively waging war against the United States or providing aid and comfort to her enemies? That is the definition of "treason."
    The shooting at fellow soldiers part.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Why does it matter so much to you? It doesn't make a huge difference to me, the end result is going to be the same.
    I'm not the one insisting -- INSISTING -- he is or isn't something.


    The shooting at fellow soldiers part.
    Weak. He could have, as you point out, just snapped. That wouldn't be treason. Treason requires intent. Yet you have no problem saying it's treason.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I'm not the one insisting -- INSISTING -- he is or isn't something.




    Weak. He could have, as you point out, just snapped. That wouldn't be treason. Treason requires intent. Yet you have no problem saying it's treason.
    Ok, you're right. Without knowing his motivations, calling him a traitor or calling him a terrorist are both premature. We'll have to wait until some information is released from his trial. I guess we're in agreement then. Not a terrorist, not a traitor, until we find evidence that he is one of those two.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Ok, you're right. Without knowing his motivations, calling him a traitor or calling him a terrorist are both premature. We'll have to wait until some information is released from his trial. I guess we're in agreement then. Not a terrorist, not a traitor, until we find evidence that he is one of those two.
    I never claimed he was or wasn't anything. It's you who reached affirmative conclusions and even got into a snit over it. It's you who claimed to know his mind, both in saying that he was engaged in combat against "enemy soldiers" and that he committed "treason." I did nothing of the kind.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Let's go with this scenario: A terrorist sets a bomb and to defuse it you need a special code, if you use the wrong code - KABOOM!!! You torture the terrorist so he will reveal the code and he gives you one. Do you believe him?

    Also, how easy is it to make someone say "Uncle" when you have their arm twisted behind their back?

    Report: KSM Lied to Avoid Further Waterboarding; ‘I Make Up Stories’ - Law Blog - WSJ
    Why do you need to invent scenarios when the reality is available?

    They waterboarded the terrorists, they talked, and lives were saved as a result.

    I think we can agree it was a very happy ending.

    No?

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Let's go with this scenario: A terrorist sets a bomb and to defuse it you need a special code, if you use the wrong code - KABOOM!!! You torture the terrorist so he will reveal the code and he gives you one. Do you believe him?

    Also, how easy is it to make someone say "Uncle" when you have their arm twisted behind their back?

    Report: KSM Lied to Avoid Further Waterboarding; ‘I Make Up Stories’ - Law Blog - WSJ
    If you make him believe that if he doesn't give you the correct code, you're going to come back and make him suffer for a few days, before you kill him; then yes, he'll give you the correct code.

    It's like this, if torture wasn't productive, it would have went out of style a few thousand years ago. Torture is very effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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