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Thread: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Just a deflection from my point.

    If he's "engaging in war," then he's an enemy soldier. Nothing else he could be. Yet you go hysterical over the idea that you're calling him that.
    Wait, you think I have a problem with calling him an enemy?

    Where did you get that idea?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Wait, you think I have a problem with calling him an enemy?

    Where did you get that idea?
    Right here, champ:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059093240
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I was reacting to you saying I was defending him, not reacting to you calling him an enemy. How is that not obvious!?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So are you saying that you are ideologically driven?
    J, no where did I say that. I even gave a republican example that doesn't bother me. Why do you do this?



    Justification is something that is human nature. I am sure that many feel that boosting the deficit nearly four times that of any other President for what you yourself term as a "short term" fix is equally disturbing. BTW, can you point to any documentation of torture other than the three men that were water boarded in GITMO that was excused by Bush or his administration?
    You're fudging your numbers, likely gathered from a unreputable source, just as Obama did, doesn't help your case. But sure, we all pick what we see as important. Those who don't see torture as important probably don't enter in this discussion much.

    Also, it doesn't matter if he excused one, three or a million. Once you excuse, you've excused tortured. And we did quite a bit of torture, some where people died before we stepped forward and held anyone accountable.

    No, that is not quite true is it now? In fact, he touted this as a fix that would keep unemployment under 8% did he not? In fact did he not say that this stimulus was needed to keep America from falling into depression? And then splayed out the spending of this for two years hoping that the fix would hit in time for this election cycle? That's short sighted, not short term is it not?
    Keeping was short term, not long term. He was wrong or failed, however you want to look at it. But it was ashort term attempt and not a long term one. Like all presidents, as they don't control the economy, he was hoping the economy would imporve while he was helping in the short term.


    That's a shame. If there were only something that Academia could do themselves to stave off the pain to students. Oh, I see you named only the students, will the staff suffer as well?
    Yes, we will. We'll increase work loard for less pay. Classrooms will be larger. Some programs will be done away with despite demand, this means lost jobs. But students will suffer more. They will incure more debt. Tuition will be higher. Programs and classes will not be available for them. In short, everything will be more difficult.


    Again, not a fix then is it? More a band aid, and a Trillion dollar one at that.....I don't know about you, but that isn't what America thought they were getting.

    j-mac
    I never claimed it was a fix. I said jobs were saved, and clarified for you in the short term. I can't say what America thought. After all, too many, including some conservatives here, think the government controls the economy, meaning government is the answer (that makes me laugh). I only know the circles I run in did not think the stimulus was anything more than a short term aid.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I was reacting to you saying I was defending him, not reacting to you calling him an enemy. How is that not obvious!?
    Because characterizing him as an enemy soldier fighting a war IS defending him. How is THAT not obvious?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Because characterizing him as an enemy soldier fighting a war IS defending him. How is THAT not obvious?
    I also characterized him as a murderer and a traitor. In what universe is that defending him?

    edit: Also, bull****. Calling someone an enemy is not defending them or their actions. It's only defending them in crazy conservative absolutism world.
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-10-10 at 03:14 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    This is what I'm talking about when I mention absolutism. To these people, "He's a murderer, a traitor, and an enemy, but not a terrorist" is seen as defending him. Because I didn't call him a murderer, traitor, enemy, and a terrorist.

    Pure lunacy. What's next?
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-10-10 at 03:20 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    This is what I'm talking about when I mention absolutism. To these people, "He's a murderer, a traitor, and an enemy, but not a terrorist" is seen as defending him. Because I didn't call him a murderer, traitor, enemy, and a terrorist.

    Pure lunacy. What's next?
    You were defending him against the charge of being a terrorist. The "lunacy" is where you went to claim he's not a terrorist -- that he's an enemy soldier conducting a war.

    I'm pretty sure it's you (once again!) who's displaying the "absolutist" thought here.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You were defending him against the charge of being a terrorist. The "lunacy" is where you went to claim he's not a terrorist -- that he's an enemy soldier conducting a war.

    I'm pretty sure it's you (once again!) who's displaying the "absolutist" thought here.
    Shooting at fellow soldiers because you were convinced to turn traitor is not terrorism, because that's not what the word terrorism means.

    How do his actions constitute terrorism, in your opinion?

    Not "unlawful act" or some violation of the Geneva convention. I agree he's guilty of those. Terrorism. How is shooting at soldiers terrorism?

    edit: And you seem to have no idea what the word "absolutist" means.
    Last edited by Deuce; 11-10-10 at 05:27 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Shooting at fellow soldiers because you were convinced to turn traitor is not terrorism, because that's not what the word terrorism means.

    How do his actions constitute terrorism, in your opinion?

    Not "unlawful act" or some violation of the Geneva convention. I agree he's guilty of those. Terrorism. How is shooting at soldiers terrorism?
    It wasn't my argument that he was. Wasn't even considering the point. Was referring to your defense of him. But considering there's no one agreed-upon definition of "terrorism," let's look at what the UN convention considers terrorism:

    "1. Any person commits an offence within the meaning of this Convention if that person, by any means, unlawfully and intentionally, causes:

    (a) Death or serious bodily injury to any person; or
    (b) Serious damage to public or private property, including a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system, an infrastructure facility or the environment; or
    (c) Damage to property, places, facilities, or systems referred to in paragraph 1 (b) of this article, resulting or likely to result in major economic loss,

    when the purpose of the conduct, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a Government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."[33]
    It's fairly clear what he did fits.

    Now, let's look at the proposed exceptions:

    "1. Nothing in this Convention shall affect other rights, obligations and responsibilities of States, peoples and individuals under international law, in particular the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and international humanitarian law.

    2. The activities of armed forces during an armed conflict, as those terms are understood under international humanitarian law, which are governed by that law, are not governed by this Convention.

    3. The activities undertaken by the military forces of a State in the exercise of their official duties, inasmuch as they are governed by other rules of international law, are not governed by this Convention.

    4. Nothing in this article condones or makes lawful otherwise unlawful acts, nor precludes prosecution under other laws."[35]
    He doesn't fall under any of those.

    Let's look at the further proposed exceptions by the Islamic Conference:

    "2. The activities of the parties during an armed conflict, including in situations of foreign occupation, as those terms are understood under international humanitarian law, which are governed by that law, are not governed by this Convention.

    3. The activities undertaken by the military forces of a State in the exercise of their official duties, inasmuch as they are in conformity with international law, are not governed by this Convention."[35]
    Doesn't fall under any of those, either.




    edit: And you seem to have no idea what the word "absolutist" means.
    I surely do. And it would include someone who, say, refers to those who ideologically differ from him as "regressives." And one who doesn't see that defending someone against the label of terrorist is indeed defending that person. You can defend someone and be right. You can defend someone who's been unjustly accused. Yet you're still defending him. And here, you defend him, and in so doing, you say he's an enemy soldier in a war rather than a terrorist. THAT characterization is INDEED "lunacy."
    Last edited by Harshaw; 11-10-10 at 05:41 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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