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2010 Midterm Results Discussion

disneydude said:
I understand that...I was speaking in the abstract. Why should taxpayers have to pay for your police/fire protection or pay for your ability to go a library and check out a book. You want to read...go to Barnes and Noble. You want fire protection, buy a hose. You want police protection, there are plenty of private security businesses that would be happy to take your money for their services.
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That is a local and state responsibility. If I don't like the taxes I pay in a community I can move to another community. Seems that again you are arguing about something you don't know about. I sincerely hope the party of "NO" tells your state to drop dead with their bailout request. We do love having businesses move from California to TX. They all bring tax revenue with them as well as a lot of consumer spending.
 
Conservative said:
We shall see, my bet is they do and further bet that Obama will use the veto pen. Hope he does as those vetos will be used to defeat him in 2012
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They didn't have to worry about Bush using the veto pen when they controlled all of Congress. So, how did they reduce the size of the government and the deficit during those years?
 
Birdzeye said:
They didn't have to worry about Bush using the veto pen when they controlled all of Congress. So, how did they reduce the size of the government and the deficit during those years?
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Way to go, divert back to Bush and ignore that Obama has put Bush spending on steroids adding 3 trillion to the debt. You must be so proud!
 
Coronado said:
That's why you used anecdote to support the idea, I guess. :doh
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Silly me, I thought it was common knowledge that these practices were going on. They passed a friggin' law to outlaw it. Wonder why they did that if there was no problem to begin with? [/sarcasm]
 
Birdzeye said:
You must be turning a deaf ear to the legitimate complaints of consumers. The "liberal agenda" you are so eager to rant against is coming from the only people who have made any effort to reform certain shady business practices, despite conservative and corporate opposition to those reforms. I have already pointed out how I personally have been ripped off by some creative bookkeeping by a credit card holder at my expense; unfortunately, before the conservative-opposed reform laws got passed, practices such as those were so widespread as to make shopping around for a better deal (in terms of being treated right by the CC company) not a viable alternative. I was trying to be responsible (by paying my bill on time) and I got screwed anyways.
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I spent 35 years in the business community dealing with the consumer. I understand that my business required customers and if I didn't treat them well I wouldn't have them and would go out of business by losing business. You seem to lack an understanding about customer service and requirements. I haven't seen any evidence that you weren't taken care for that shoddy business practice as you apparently prefer the govt. taking on your personal responsibilities.
 
Birdzeye said:
Silly me, I thought it was common knowledge that these practices were going on. They passed a friggin' law to outlaw it. Wonder why they did that if there was no problem to begin with? [/sarcasm]
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Why? because of an overreaching Federal govt. who seems to believe it is the Federal Responsibility to handle personal responsibility issues.
 
Conservative said:
What prevented your brother from purchasing health insurance? Do you think you should pay for my healthcare?
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He had health insurance from his employer. I was referring to his out of pocket expenses. His employer provided insurance was not particularly great. Some people would have been in even worst circumstances than he is now.
 
Birdzeye said:
They didn't have to worry about Bush using the veto pen when they controlled all of Congress. So, how did they reduce the size of the government and the deficit during those years?
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They didn't. They made more intrusive government, they went against the liberties of the individual, they increased debt and spending by fantastic quantities. So tell me again, how are the Republicans and Democrats different?
 
Birdzeye said:
I've had a credit card payment credited to my account AFTER the due date, even though the company got the payment well ahead of the due date, and gotten dinged with a late fee. More than once.
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Then you call the company and have the charge reversed or just close your account.

I don't know why some people just expect the government to do absolutely everything for them. :roll:
 
Birdzeye said:
He had health insurance from his employer. I was referring to his out of pocket expenses. His employer provided insurance was not particularly great. Some people would have been in even worst circumstances than he is now.
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Is it possible that he only selected the cheapest insurance offer from his employer? Most employers that I know offer options and leave it to the employee to decide. I had over 1000 people and offered them a cafeteria style program and funded it at 80%. Less than 50% accepted the insurance because like far too many they felt they were invinceable. You cannot legislate stupidity.
 
Conservative said:
Did you call the credit card company to get the charge reversed? My bet is they did reverse the charge. Ever deal with a govt. bureaucrat and the mistakes they make? Shoddy business practices are always going to occur. You have a recourse against those business practices. Where does personal responsibility lie in your world. I have had late payments reversed because of credit card company errors so not sure what your problem is. Then there is always small claims court. I think you just love to complain.
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I did call. No deal. It was up to me to prove them wrong, not the other way around.

I have dealt with intransigent insurance company bureaucrats who were quite impossible to deal with.

I make legitimate complaints, and when I see that the game is rigged against the consumer, I'm all in favor of outlawing certain sleazy business practices. I make no apologies for that.
 
Birdzeye said:
I did call. No deal. It was up to me to prove them wrong, not the other way around.

I have dealt with intransigent insurance company bureaucrats who were quite impossible to deal with.

I make legitimate complaints, and when I see that the game is rigged against the consumer, I'm all in favor of outlawing certain sleazy business practices. I make no apologies for that.
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Then you should have cancelled your account and gone to the BBB. You didn't seem to have a problem using the credit card to run up bills to buy what you wanted. Seems you want to dictate the terms of someone else giving you credit.

Looks to me like you have a problem with personal responsibility. You don't like the credit card company close the account. You don't like your insurance company, get another one. Sleazy business practices are outlawed, there are laws against it before Obama got into office.
 
Conservative said:
I spent 35 years in the business community dealing with the consumer. I understand that my business required customers and if I didn't treat them well I wouldn't have them and would go out of business by losing business. You seem to lack an understanding about customer service and requirements. I haven't seen any evidence that you weren't taken care for that shoddy business practice as you apparently prefer the govt. taking on your personal responsibilities.
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You clearly don't know me. I don't see how outlawing certain shoddy business practices amounts to the government taking on personal responsibilities. I see it as telling businesses that certain practices will not be allowed by law. I think that supporting such laws is an act of personal responsibility by demanding that certain ground rules (of what we often call "fair play") be observed. If businesses abide by that law, then the government won't get involved. If they continue those practices, then I as a consumer can seek civil or criminal penalties. What is so wrong with that?
 
Conservative said:
Why? because of an overreaching Federal govt. who seems to believe it is the Federal Responsibility to handle personal responsibility issues.
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What personal responsibilities have people shirked when they got ripped off by companies that engaged in anticompetitive shoddy practices such as the ones I've mentioned? What about companies' responsibilities to deal with their customers in an ethical manner? Or is personal responsibility only for the little guy?
 
Birdzeye said:
Once again, a lovely sounding platitude from the right wing that conveniently ignores some ugly realities.

My brother had major heart surgery earlier this year to treat a genetic heart defect that had become life-threatening. (IOW, he did not have heart problems because of unhealthy lifestyle.) The good news: he survived the surgery. The bad news: he has not recovered enough to be able to return to work, and his out of pocket medical expenses, which run into six figures, far more than his income, have forced him into bankruptcy.

This is not an unusual problem
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no...and I know there are thousands of stories out there that are similar. I something like health insurance had to be paid by the individual, or even more awesome, health insurance didn't exist prices for these types of procedures would be DRAMATICALLY reduced, and with family members able to keep more of their money there may be more help there, and for those who are not as fortunate there will be more people giving to charities who help people in these situations, like churches and so on. In addition being able to keep more of your money will mean more money for you to save, for emergencies, instead of using credit. The wonderful thing about this is that it allows your fellow man keem their own money and do the same or do other things with their money if they don't need it. It allows us all to look after ourselves instead of being forced to look after otehr people who may or may not care as much about themselves because they know someone else will do it for them.
 
Birdzeye said:
You clearly don't know me. I don't see how outlawing certain shoddy business practices amounts to the government taking on personal responsibilities. I see it as telling businesses that certain practices will not be allowed by law. I think that supporting such laws is an act of personal responsibility by demanding that certain ground rules (of what we often call "fair play") be observed. If businesses abide by that law, then the government won't get involved. If they continue those practices, then I as a consumer can seek civil or criminal penalties. What is so wrong with that?
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Fraud and deceit have always been illegal. We didn't need Obama to pass a law, we only needed people like you to take personal responsibility. If the credit card company was wrong, close the account and they will freeze your rate and would have eliminated the late fee. You seem to want to keep the benefits of the card without accepting the responsibilties of having that card.
 
Birdzeye said:
You clearly don't know me. I don't see how outlawing certain shoddy business practices amounts to the government taking on personal responsibilities. I see it as telling businesses that certain practices will not be allowed by law. I think that supporting such laws is an act of personal responsibility by demanding that certain ground rules (of what we often call "fair play") be observed. If businesses abide by that law, then the government won't get involved. If they continue those practices, then I as a consumer can seek civil or criminal penalties. What is so wrong with that?
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It's already against the law to charge late fees for payments that are not late.

We've had this happen to us many times before and we have never once paid a late fee. I think you're leaving the part of the story out where you just give up and start pouting about those meanies at the bank, rather than taking the initiative to see the issue through to completion.
 
Ikari said:
They didn't. They made more intrusive government, they went against the liberties of the individual, they increased debt and spending by fantastic quantities. So tell me again, how are the Republicans and Democrats different?
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I didn't, and I don't believe that they are different. However, some of the more conservative posters seem to believe that the Dems have a monopoly on raising debt and deficits, more intrusive government, etc. etc.
 
Birdzeye said:
What personal responsibilities have people shirked when they got ripped off by companies that engaged in anticompetitive shoddy practices such as the ones I've mentioned? What about companies' responsibilities to deal with their customers in an ethical manner? Or is personal responsibility only for the little guy?
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I give up, nothing is going to change your mind. The consumer has the clout, stop buying from companies you believe have shoddy business practices. Stop using credit cards, stop blaming someone else for personal failures.
 
Coronado said:
It's already against the law to charge late fees for payments that are not late.

We've had this happen to us many times before and we have never once paid a late fee. I think you're leaving the part of the story out where you just give up and start pouting about those meanies at the bank, rather than taking the initiative to see the issue through to completion.
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But it was done through creative bookkeeping. Since those practices were so widespread, looking for a deal with better treatment was not a viable option.
That is why people were clamoring for the recently passed law.
 
Birdzeye said:
I am sympathetic to the challenges small business owners face, and would support efforts to make things easier for them.

However, I was talking about the shoddy practices inflicted by businesses on consumers, perfectly responsible people who have made no "stupid choices," but have gotten dinged with a $40 credit card late fee because the company held onto their payment and didn't post it until AFTER the due date (even though they got the payment BEFORE). Since that kind of practice has been so widespread, it was next to impossible to shop around for a business that treated its customers better; hence, the need to outlaw practices such as that - and the conservatives have been against that kind of reform in business practices.

Even if people just decided en masses to ditch all their credit cards, there are still the banks. In our society and economy, it's not practical not to have a bank account of some kind, and responsible people were getting dinged with "NSF" fees because of creative account "management" by their banks, resulting in negative account balances when the money really was there. Again, we got reforms to outlaw those practices - despite the opposition of conservatives.
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even with banks cash is king...use cash or a debit card to purchase items, and learn how to ballance your check book and these things don't happen. In the rare case that they would, you can complain to your bank and they should fix the problem, otherwise you move your money to a different bank.

and if this is happening to the point that it is actually damaging you financially, you have some real problems beyond the bank dinging you for overdraft fees....you just suck at handling your money.
 
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Conservative said:
I give up, nothing is going to change your mind. The consumer has the clout, stop buying from companies you believe have shoddy business practices. Stop using credit cards, stop blaming someone else for personal failures.
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And I've been saying that that "clout" you are dreaming about is largely illusory. Your mind is made up, and you're giving ME grief about me changing my mind? LOL

What are my personal failures? You don't see businesses as having to adhere to some responsibilities that you want me to adhere to? Double standards much?
 
Birdzeye said:
But it was done through creative bookkeeping. Since those practices were so widespread, looking for a deal with better treatment was not a viable option.
That is why people were clamoring for the recently passed law.
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No, it was done by someone mistakenly crediting your account late. There's not some big conspiracy against you to charge you a late fee.

As for the new law, it doesn't change the fact that fraud (which is what you are assuming the banks are engaged in) has been illegal for centuries.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'll look for it again. As for price versus quality, do we really want an inferior product in education and medicine? Really?
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the education product is already inferior...competition will not make it worse (probably can't make it worse...just sayin)

medicine is not inferior, BECAUSE there is competition HEAVY competition.
 
Coronado said:
No, it was done by someone mistakenly crediting your account late. There's not some big conspiracy against you to charge you a late fee.

As for the new law, it doesn't change the fact that fraud (which is what you are assuming the banks are engaged in) has been illegal for centuries.
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It's called '**** HAPPENS'.
 
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